Podkast Pravoslavna reč

00:02 This is a Global Player original podcast. 00:06 Three minutes after ten and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. It's still me. 00:12 I have not yet been replaced by... What do we have to call it these days after Donald Trump didn't... Super! I have not yet been replaced by super... How could I be replaced by superintelligence? How do you replace superintelligence with superintelligence? 00:28 I have not yet been replaced. I am less confident than I was. Does anybody know? Does anybody keep track of such things? Does anybody care about when we first discussed this? And you sent me AI-generated versions of my opening monologues, and they were appalling. They were hilariously bad. And then every time, or almost every time, we've turned our attention to this territory subsequently, they've got better. They've got better and better and better to the point where I could still tell. 00:59 I wonder whether the hardest thing for AI to fake is actually the fact that none of this is prepared in advance and I have no idea what's going to come out of my gob next. 01:09 One day I will tell you the identity of the LBC presenter who arrived here after a long and glittering career in television and asked me, you know those monologues you do at the top of your show? And I said, yes, blank. And they said, do you write them yourself or does your producer write them for you? And I thought, oh dear, how are we going to break this? How are we going to introduce you to this slightly different world that you're moving into? But that's probably the hardest thing for AI to... 01:39 to copy authentically. You can go off at segues, you can go off on weird tangents, and let's be clear, I've already gone off on three, but you have to have some sort of thread, some thread of humanity that combines the... 01:55 The tangents with the meat and drink of whatever it is that you're discussing. So the reason why, why on earth, when we turn our attention to this subject, do I find myself thinking about Swiss hedgerows and Ernest Hemingway? 02:11 I'll tell you. The first is, or rather the second is easy. Ernest Hemingway famously in one of his novels, I forget which, has a line in which a character describes bankruptcy as happening first quickly, then all at once. And I suspect that we are, well, I think we can probably all agree that we are going to be contemplating something similar. when it comes to jobs being replaced by artificial intelligence, that very specific angle on this story. 02:42 You know, I'm a sucker for this kind of... It's in The Sun Also Rises, the 1926 novel by Ernest Hemingway. 02:48 And it's a character called Mike Campbell, and he's asked how he went bankrupt. How did you go bankrupt? Bill asked. I am available for West End Productions. I'm available for all the great American works, Arthur Miller, whatever it may be. How did you go bankrupt? Bill asked. Two ways, Mike said, gradually and then suddenly. And that is how I think AI is. I'll do that again for you in case there are any casting agents listening. Gradually and then suddenly. 03:19 And that is, I think, how AI is going to replace jobs. And today's story, about 5,000 people being replaced. 03:26 essentially because of the use of AI, is, I suspect, very much a taste of things to come. And it's happening at Barclays. Now, you know, irredeemable leftist that I am, I feel duty bound to point out to you that Barclays revealed that it made £2.3 billion in profit in the three months to September alone. Now, please, violins at the ready. It was slightly less than forecast. 03:54 although a little bit more than the same period a year ago. So can we all now just spare a moment, thoughts and prayers for Barclays Bank shareholders, whose £2.3 billion profit in the three months of September was slightly less than forecast. 5,000 people losing their jobs at a company that just posted three-month profits of £2.3 billion. And I know that I am naive, but I just think that stinks. Which brings me to the Swiss hedgerows. Special prizes for anyone who can work out why. 04:25 Are we ready? I daren't check. 04:31 Whether or not this is true, because it is something I have clung to since childhood. I have no idea why it landed so powerfully with me and why it continues to resonate so much. I love the people who are correcting me on quoting the Ernest Hemingway, which I went to the trouble of looking up. Everybody thinks that it's first slowly, then suddenly, or first... 04:54 slowly then all at once the correct line I can categorically assure you because I checked with AI is two ways gradually and then suddenly but I digress because we're supposed to be talking obviously about hedgerows in Switzerland so when I was a kid Switzerland was one of the first one countries I visited you know I went on camping holidays to France but I went on a school trip a ski trip would you believe to Switzerland with schools abroad when I was about 11 I remember learning, reading, being told that in Switzerland they had legislation in place that protected hedgerows. 05:31 And the reason this was so interesting is that it was a counter to the idea that everybody should be free to pursue as much profit as they possibly can. So if you're a farmer and you own four fields and they are currently separated by hedgerows, then if you get rid of all the hedgerows except the very... 05:47 outer ones, the ones that actually demarcate your land from other farmers' land, then you can not only plant more crops, obviously, but you can till the land and sow and reap the crops more easily because it's one massive field as opposed to four smaller ones. And Swiss legislation demanded that they left the hedgerows in place. Do you know why? Because they look so lovely. This, I think, was even before the economic value of hedgerows as ecosystems in which all manner of creatures can thrive was fully understood. 06:18 before we understood the importance perhaps of pollinators and other wildlife, flora and fauna, contributing to the broader ecosystem from a micro-ecosystem level. It was simply because as you drive around the Swiss cantons, as I think they might be called, you drive around the Swiss cantons... 06:41 you see beautiful, beautiful countryside. Get it from trains, probably more than cars, certainly in this country. 06:48 Bombing up and down to Birmingham quite a lot recently, or to Worcester, depending on the timetables. And the Cotswolds, the bits that you see from Trapp, beautiful. And the fewer hedgerows there are, the less, I don't know. 07:00 the less cared for things appear to be. So I like that story in the context of AI, if you're wondering what on earth I'm gibbering on about, because it's about deciding that some things are worth more than money. 07:15 How pathetic does that sound, eh? In an era where we're constantly being told that the most greedy and rapacious characters on the planet deserve our protection, support, and admiration because they are wealth creators. But some things are more important than money. Unless, of course, you're a shareholder. So 2.3 billion pounds of profit. But we've got 5,000 people over there getting paid to do something that we could do with AI. So let's get rid of them. And then this time next year, there'll be even more profit. And even fewer workers. 07:46 And there's a sort of ineluctable logic to it. There's an irresistible gravity to this argument. It is capitalism in its purest form. But it's sad, right? 07:56 And we don't know where it takes us. 07:59 Slowly or rather gradually. And then suddenly it will go. 08:07 I think AI still divides into this category. I think this still works. 08:14 you either marvel at how amazing it is, and you possibly might goggle at how amazing it is, you might be slightly cowed by how amazing it is, or you're still very much in the foothills, or, well, let me, a better analogy, you're still very much not even on the train, and some people are not even on the platform waiting for the train. So you are either choo-chooing, full speed ahead, with varying degrees of fear or excitement about where the train may take you, but you have a grasp of its capabilities because of things that you have asked it to do, things that you have asked it to do for you. 08:54 Or you are on the platform waiting for the train, aware of a general vibe, but not really that clear on what a big deal it is or certainly no idea of where it's going to go. Or you have never even visited the station and you're not entirely sure what everybody else is talking about. I'd like to try today to make at least an hour of radio that has something for everybody. It has something for the people who get it to the point where they are either evangelical about its advantages and its excitement, or they are terrified about where it is taking us. 09:26 But the precursor for both of those positions is knowledge and understanding. 09:31 The second, of course, is the... 09:37 category of people into which I fall where I'm either just pulling out of the station or I'm waiting on the platform. I'm aware of it. People keep telling me stuff. I haven't really used it much myself except as a glorified search engine. I'm not asking it to answer questions. I'm asking it to find me the stuff I need to answer the questions myself, if that makes sense. 09:59 And the third category of people, the complete... 10:03 what would the correct word be i don't want to use a pejorative like ignoramus but the complete innocent the a i innocent or the aii if you prefer which makes everything suddenly sound a little bit geordie the a i innocent the person who knows nothing about it um 10 14 is the time Nick had a very, very good phone in this morning about people whose jobs are AI proof. And we may actually return to some of that territory, although I'm not sure anyone's going to be able to beat the woman who rang in to tell him that her son is a priest. 10:38 I wouldn't be so confident, madam, actually. I think AI could, I mean, AI can do therapy. Some terrible stories about people, young people in particular, putting far too much weight on their so-called relationship with AI. If there isn't already an AI priest taking confession, then there almost certainly will be soon. But it was a lovely conversation and it was a lovely answer to the question. I'll ask the opposite question first this morning. 11:02 Are you next? 11:05 Genuinely. Or has it already happened to you? So have you already been replaced by AI or are you conscious of the fact that it is imminent? And the broader the range of jobs that we can collect under this umbrella, the more interesting the conversation will be. So that's it. It's as simple as that. Are you next? Which jobs are the most vulnerable? And you know this. Perhaps you're one of the people at Barclays, in which case you may even get a Ray Liotta, albeit that there are 5,000 of you. 03456060973. 11:35 People who have already or who are fearful of losing their jobs to AI. 03456060973. But for the people in categories two and three... 11:50 I want the people in category one to answer this question. 11:54 Imagine you are talking to somebody who knows nothing about this, right? 11:59 I mean, they are aware just about of the phrase artificial intelligence. They keep hearing people talking about AI. They keep hearing people in their inner circle or their outer circle or just some gob on a stick on the radio describing AI. Everyone's talking about AI. 12:14 It's AI this and AI that and AI the other. 12:17 And they sit there and if they're anything like me, they'll try and nod along looking as if they know what you're talking about. But if they are more modest people, then they will be looking a little bit baffled or they'll be sort of looking a little bit blank or they'll be poised to ask, what does it do? 12:36 But the longer this goes on, the further down the tracks the train goes, the more wary we will be of admitting our own ignorance. You know? 12:46 What does it actually do? I want you to imagine you're talking to that person, that person right there. 12:53 I don't really know what it is. I don't know what it does. And I want you to tell them what you have used AI for. 13:02 That will make them go, wow. That's it. That's question three, all right? What have you used it for? What have you got it to do that will make people, and I'm afraid I'm going to have to include myself in this category, despite my very best efforts to keep up, I am taken by surprise when people tell me what they're getting AI to do. Probably most powerfully by a barrister friend of mine who recently became a king's council. Well, you can tell it's recent because he became a king's council, not a queen's council. And he reckoned that about 90% of the work in a chambers, in a barrister's chambers that was previously done by clerks or paralegals. 13:40 would now be done by AI. So when he is preparing a case, AI, someone else will operate the AI, but they will take a fraction of the time and the bodies that were previously necessary. 13:53 I know it makes mistakes. Listen, I don't want to sound condescending, but don't waste Tuppence sending me a message telling me that it makes mistakes and it's fallible. I know all that. 14:02 That's not the question we're asking. The question we're asking is, are you next? 03456060973. And tell us something amazing it can do. 14:13 Tell us something amazing that it's done for you. Any Monty Python fans in the house? Should we do it? Should we go there? Yeah, all right then. What has AI ever done for you? 14:26 20 minutes after 10 is the time. It is that time of year again. I don't know if it's cyclical. Is anyone keeping count? We should have made a note of the very first time we did it. Our sort of ongoing examination of the ongoing impact of AI. Today, it's 5,000 jobs at Barclays that have gone. As the bank introduces more artificial intelligence, that's about 5% of their global workforce. Tomorrow, of course, to paraphrase the old lottery slogan... It could be you. Do you think it's going to be? 14:56 Or perhaps it already is. I've heard from three translators already this morning via text, Christina and two others that I haven't earmarked so I don't have the names in front of me, who say they have already been rendered more or less redundant. by AI. You'll always need human oversight, but one human can probably oversee 100 translators, where previously there would have been 101 jobs there. 15:20 And then the second question, the one which, if I'm honest with you, I kind of find quite exciting, is the revelations or the news of what you have used it for but not like oh i planned a lovely holiday i know all that as the thing that will make us go wow i saw something on the tube the other day i saw something on the tube the other day i think it was called harvey and it said this is going to completely change the lives of lawyers up by chancery lane so i can't imagine that they've got adverts in many other places that's where all the lawyers congregate in london around hoban chancery lane near the temples and And I just thought, I found myself thinking, I haven't looked it up yet, but I found myself thinking, what's that going to do? 16:06 How's that going to work? And how, I wonder, or who is it actually going to replace? There's a lot to get into. And plenty of time to do it. Mystery Hour on the way, of course, at 12. Adrian is in Western Supermare. Adrian, what would you like to say? 16:21 Good morning, James. Glad you're well. 16:23 Yeah, so my very, very best friend is at a very senior management level in one of the biggest tech companies in the world, and they provide security for banks, etc. 16:35 And he runs a team of people who are actually making agents, they call them, to replace themselves. 16:43 Yeah. 16:43 So they're building these things. 16:44 That's kind of dystopian, isn't it? That's kind of sci-fi. 16:48 It's a little bit like the technological equivalent of being sent to the subcontinent to train people to replace you at some point in the not-too-distant future. And, of course, that's already happened. And now an awful lot of people that were trained to replace British-based workers working remotely from areas where wages are much lower, even the people on the lower wages are now probably facing redundancy as a consequence of... Yeah, but he already knows he's out of a job soon. 17:13 He's planning to retire in next year sometime anyway. But he already knows they're building agents now that are going to replace him at his level of management, which is right up there. 17:22 They'll need one person to oversee... 17:25 Yeah, but it won't be him. It'll be his boss. No, it'll be his boss. He knows he's out of a job. But every time I talk to him about it, he absolutely blows my mind with what he tells me. Most of it flies over my head. I drive lorries for a living, so I don't think AI's going to catch up with me any time soon. Of course it is. Of course it is. 17:41 I saw a driverless car on Charing Cross Road a month ago. 17:44 Yeah, but an AI bot at the moment for quite a few years, at least until I retire, is not going to go to an oil terminal, pick up oil and deliver it to a garage. Do you want to put a few quid on that? Yeah, go on then. 17:54 I'm not allowed to place bets on the radio, but this is what I mean. Hang on, don't interrupt me. Don't interrupt me while I'm interrupting you. This is why I love that Hemingway line. How did you go bankrupt? Two ways, gradually and then suddenly. So I think we can say, I sat here probably only two years ago. 18:13 reading the monologues that someone had asked AI to produce and sniggling, you know, very much in the style of 30 P. Lee. I was sniggling away. And now when people say, do me a monologue on the subject of Jackdaw, Gasfield being cleared by Andy Burnham in the style of James O'Brien, I'll read it now and I won't think, crikey, that could be me, but I'll read sentences in it and I'll go, crikey, that could be, I might actually use that one. That's extraordinary. And that's two years. So I don't think any of us, hardly any of us can say anything with full confidence, unless you're planning on retiring next week, in which case scratch everything I've just said. 18:48 I wouldn't count any particular chickens on this. 18:52 Well, maybe not, but do you know what blows my mind about what you've told me? Go on. You know like you've got people working on a system or something somewhere and people make mistakes, right? 19:00 Yeah. 19:01 Well, these robots, these agents that they're building also make mistakes, right? 19:06 Yeah. 19:06 So what they're doing is they're building agents to watch the agents to correct their mistakes. It's mind-blowing. Isn't that a Thompson twin song? Is it watching The Detectives? I think it was. I'm not a fan, but yeah, awesome. It absolutely blows my mind when he talks about it. 19:20 Well, I'll tell you something else that's going to blow your mind. Aurora Innovation and Kodiak Robots operate driverless and human-monitored heavy trucks on fixed highway routes, such as the corridor between Dallas and Houston in Texas. 19:31 Yeah. No, I get it. 19:32 Robot lorry drivers and autonomous semi-trucks are moving from experimental trials into active commercial freight operations, particularly on long-haul highway corridors. 19:40 They're coming for you, Adrian! Beep, beep! No, listen, I work on fuel, right? And every petrol station is different. So to do what you're saying they're going to do They'll have to standardise every fuel station in the country. 19:53 That's just massive. They will. They'll do it, especially if there's a few quid to be saved and a few more millions to be pumped into the pockets of the richest people on the planet. I'm sorry, the wealth creators who must be protected and honoured at all costs. Adrian, thank you. Catherine's in Wigan, from Western to Wigan. Catherine, what would you like to say? 20:11 Good morning, James. 20:12 Hello. 20:13 First time caller. 20:14 Why have you taken so long? Do you think I'm here for my own amusement? No. 20:19 Perhaps at first, but 18 months in and I'm hooked. Thank you. 20:24 Thank you, Catherine. Go on. What a perfect answer. Lovely stuff. 20:28 Okay. Okay, so AI, James. I'm delighted, excited, and terrified at the same time. 20:36 That sounds good. 20:38 I don't know about that. 20:40 I mean, for the purposes of listening to what you have to say, not necessarily for the safety of the planet or our general well-being. But in terms of an interesting conversation, those are the kind of adverbs that I want. 20:51 OK, well, here goes. The first thing that made me pick up the phone is what I'd say to other people if they'd never used AI before is, what interests you? What do you like? 21:03 Talk to me about that as a starting point. 21:06 Disused railways. Disused railway stations and cranes. 21:11 Crane? Well, disused railway stations. Where are they? Have they significant historical interest? 21:18 If you're interested in railways, I am, that's a perfect example of what you could talk to it about, and you could lose yourself in that world. 21:25 But that's glorified search engine stuff, isn't it? That's not like, wow, drop my mode. That's not a marmalade dropper, as P.G. Woodhouse described it. Give me a marmalade dropper. 21:35 Okay, well, that was the start of the term. So I have an interest in psychology, and AI is very good at talking about concepts, identifying my own biases in my thinking... 21:48 Fact-checking, it's superb for that. And understanding the biases that I'm bringing to the table. 21:55 It's very good for sharpening my own awareness of how I think and come across. And it's also, so that's a good point. It's a good tool for learning. 22:07 Why are you terrified? 22:10 Because I use it for work. 22:12 And that means soon work will be using it for you. 22:15 Well, I think... What do you do? 22:18 Can I ask? You don't have to tell me. 22:19 No, no, it's fine. I do a lot of audits and inspections, so my job requires me to be physical and present on site. Right. But my report writing doesn't. 22:28 Yeah. 22:30 And this is the danger. The report writing... I don't make mistakes anymore in my report writing. 22:35 It's a bit like my broadcasting. 22:37 I use AI to check it. 22:41 Ah, wow. We have two... Why is that terrifying? 22:45 Because you don't necessarily need, it's like having your own technical checker, your own personal checker. Somebody does that, an expert does that, you know? 22:57 Oh, I see. So it's replaced the expert. 22:59 So it can potentially. 23:00 It goes up and down. That's the mad thing about AI. Normally when we talk about replacement of humans with technology, we all go a little bit Luddite, don't we? And we're all thinking about the things we studied in school like mills and looms and things that replaced humans and therefore the Luddites came in to smash them up and things like that. But this replaces pretty much everybody. Right up the food chain, right up the chain of command to the point where you only really have jobs in most sectors as AI supervisors. 23:31 And they're probably replaceable eventually as well. 23:34 Well, the supervisors, well, the AI are the supervisors of the people in my role in a way. And ultimately, just because I can't picture now how I don't need to be, how I need to be physically present, I can see myself in five years' time being physically present, On site. That might change, and I think it probably will. I can't see that far ahead. 23:56 No, well, a bit like our last fella, a bit like poor old Adrian in the soon-to-be-completely-redundant business of haulage. I'm teasing Adrian. Comfortably and confidently saying, I'll be all right. I'll be okay. I listened to Nick's show this morning, and some of the people ringing in, very confident, oh, we'll always need dog walkers, we'll always need groomers. I walked through Charing Cross Station some mornings, and they've already replaced the cleaners with a robot. 24:23 If you've just tied a few dogs to the robot cleaner in Charing Cross Station, Bob's your uncle. Save a fortune on dog walkers. Don't text me to tell me about all the extra gubbins you provide as a human dog walker. You'll be next. Half past ten is the time. Who is safe? Probably nobody. But I want to know who knows that they're not. So who knows that they're next? And I still haven't had a marmalade dropper. I want a marmalade dropper of the things that AI did for you. Meanwhile, here is Dominic Ellis with your headlines. 24:50 10.34 is the time. Would you ring in to talk to a bot? 24:54 Maybe that will save us. Just the knowledge that you're not talking to a real person, which means they'd have to fool you into believing that you were. But would you be able to tell? I don't know that this day is that far off, to be honest with you. Two of the great titans of American literature are very much running through today's show. I've already told you why Ernest Hemingway is and that famous line about about bankruptcy and and Kurt Vonnegut and it's important to get this one correct this is one of my all-time favorite pieces of writing and it becomes more powerful with every passing year it begins with a well with Vonnegut the writer talking about how he is going out to buy an envelope His wife says, where are you going? 25:37 Do you want more accents? Any agents listening? I'll go a bit New York now. Where are you going? Says his wife, who has a very deep voice for a lady. And he says, well, I'm going to buy an envelope. I'm going to buy an envelope, he says. 25:52 And she says, well, you're not a poor man. I'd stop doing the accents now. She says, well, you're not a poor man. Why don't you buy 1,000 envelopes? They'll deliver them. And you can put them in a closet. And this is from way before Amazon or anything like that. This is just when you could order a thousand envelopes. And the stationery company, Adrian, would turn up in his lorry. Admittedly, it's full of petrol at the moment. But, you know, the point stands. And this is beautiful. They'll deliver them and you can put them in a closet. And I say, oh, hush, which is a little bit patriarchal, isn't it? But this is very much of its time. And then Vonnegut writes, so I go down the steps here and I go out to this newsstand across the street where they sell magazines and lottery tickets and stationery. 26:29 I have to get in line because there are people buying candy and all that sort of thing and I talk to them. The woman behind the counter has a jewel between her eyes and when it's my turn I ask her if there have been any big winners lately. I get my envelope and I seal it up and I go to the postal convenience center down the block at the corner of 47th Street and 2nd Avenue, where I'm secretly in love with the woman behind the counter. I keep absolutely poker-faced. I should have done the accent. This is so American, isn't it? I keep absolutely poker-faced. I never let her know how I feel about her. 27:01 One time I had my pocket picked in there and got to meet a cop and tell him about it. Anyway, I addressed the envelope to Carolyn Woodstock. I stamped the envelope and mail it in a box in front of the post office and I go home. 27:14 And I've had a hell of a good time. And I tell you, we are here on earth to fart around and don't let anybody tell you different. 27:24 And I don't know why. 27:27 I always think of that, not least because my friend Scott sends it to me every time we talk about AI. But I always, always think of that when we have this conversation. 27:40 There it is. 27:44 That's why it feels both sad and exciting at the same time. But that's not really what we're talking about today. I just take any opportunity I can to share with you some of the greats of 20th century American literature. We're talking about who's next, and we are talking about the amazing thing it can do that will make a relatively well-informed person who's not fully clued up on AI yet go, wow. Sean's in Chipping Norton in the Cotswolds. Sean, what would you like to say? 28:11 Oh, hello, James. I've written a book called Stop the Clock, which is the impact of AI on the legal profession. 28:17 Okay. 28:18 And it impacts any professional services organization, really, that charges by the hour. Because if AI could do in 10 minutes what it used to take you 20 hours to do, how are you going to charge your clients for it? And the answer is not by the hour. And so the legal profession, another... 28:37 Professors like accounting, architecture, people in charge by the hour. It's not a tool that you bring into your business as purely as a tool. It's something that is going to change your business model. And that's what you've got to do. If you think about the lawyers firms at the moment, they're a pyramid. You've got equity partners at the top of the pyramid. And as you go down, you've got lots of junior lawyers doing lots of hours. Well, AI is replacing those junior lawyers. 29:05 This is your industry. This is your sector, is it, Sean? 29:08 Absolutely, yeah. I'm a lawyer. 29:09 And how far down the road has it already gone? Because everybody I know is still being billed by the hour, even though the work won't be done in the way that created the system under which everybody was billed by the hour. 29:22 Well, there is a movement towards fixed fees, and that is gaining pace. 29:30 Lots of lawyers will say, oh, no, you can't give me a fixed price for doing work. And I say that's absolute nonsense. Yes, you can. 29:38 So you're a pioneer. 29:40 I'm not a pioneer. 29:41 An early adopter, then. 29:43 An influencer. 29:44 You're an influencer, Sean. 29:46 Oh, God, I wouldn't say that. My kids would weep. But I work with law services. I get them off the crack. Right. 29:56 And to present clients with choices. Gold, silver, bronze. 30:01 Here are three options. Here are three prices. What do you want? Not linked to time. 30:06 Because that is how, I mean, so many things are priced historically. And law is, as I've touched on before, law feels to me to be at the vanguard of some of this stuff. And this is one of the reasons why, isn't it? Because it's so closely allied to man hours. Even if you mow lawns for a living, you're going to probably charge by lawn rather than by hour. But lawyers always, always, always hourly rates, billable hours. 30:31 But if you think of what lawyers have got to change their mindset and start billing for the outcomes, because clients don't go to lawyers, they get frightened by the billable hour. And what they want is an outcome. Can you help me achieve my results? And if the answer is I give you three prices or one price, I give you a price and you think, yeah, that's good enough. That's good for me. 30:55 and it's a yes or no, it's a fixed price, you'll be happy as a client. 30:59 When did you wake up to this? 31:02 I went to America in 2017 to a conference in Dallas, and it was led by the value-based pricing guru, a guy called Ron Baker, who's written eight books on the subject. And I went there, and there were 100 people there, lots of lawyers, lots of accountants. 31:16 I was the only British in the room. Wow. 31:19 And I then kept in touch with lots of lawyers who were doing this, value-based pricing, not charging by the hour. And I nagged them for years. How do you do this? How do you do that? So that at my firm, I could roll it out as a pilot. And then guess what? You get clients that are happier. You get lawyers that are happier. And you get business owners that are happier once you can get off the billable hour. 31:40 Still quite a lot of resistance to it, though, because you're asking, Moe? 31:45 There is a lot of people that are thinking the resistance is it's a change management project. It's not, oh, could we all do this for Monday? It is how does this impact our business? And lawyers dislike change, naturally conservative, argumentative, risk averse. That's our nature. But you've got to take these people with you on a journey. 32:07 And in a workforce of 100, how many will be left in a few years' time? 32:13 Good question. 32:15 It depends. There are already firms that, you know, depends how well you adopt AI. And I'm working with some law firms who are all over this like a rash. 32:24 All right, then the best case scenario from their point of view, the people who adopt it perfectly, the people who I'm just looking at the publicity material. 32:33 You could look to cut your workforce extensively. 32:37 Give me a number, mate. 32:38 Oh, I... It depends on the adult. There are already AI automated law firms already who take the instructions from a client. You can go online, put your details of a debt recovery matter into a... Or a ticket you shouldn't have got. That's it. And it will do the litigation for you. It will present the brief to a barrister. You still need a barrister to do the advocacy. You're not going to get rid of that straight away. But all of the work leading up to that was AI generated. 33:10 cost versus value-based pricing. And your book is called Stop the Clock, How the AI Law Firm Moves from Billable Hours to Value-Based Pricing. 33:19 Oh, bless you. 33:19 Thank you for looking it up. 33:20 Well, I can't plug my own books as mercilessly as I do, Sean, without giving yours a quick push, can I? That would be hypocrisy personified. Thank you. And I don't know why my instincts drew me to the legal profession almost first on this subject, partly because of my friend shocked me with the tale of not needing junior lawyers or rather, you know, AI being able to do. In fact, I think Sean addresses it directly. AI can now do in minutes. This is on the publicity material for his book. 33:48 AI can now do in minutes what used to take a junior lawyer hours. And there it is. 33:53 Hannah is in Richmond. Hannah, what made you pick up the phone? 33:56 Good morning, James. I'd like to bring it a bit closer to home for you, perhaps. I work in broadcasting and AI is finding its way into quite a few different areas of business. But certainly much the way the gentleman before described, time-saving measures. 34:18 Case in point, researchers, we have systems now that can take every single piece of media in your archive, watch it, tell you whose faces are in every second of it, transcribe every word of it, make it all searchable. So, for example, you know, celebrity passes away and you need to find the back catalogue and make a nice reel of their life. It can take minutes now rather than days of hard work. You know, junior researchers would be the ones sent to the archives to dig through all the tapes. 34:50 Part of the reason why there's such a jobs crisis or such an employment crisis among people with, in some cases, long and glittering television careers. So much more is now being done by AI. And the other thing that occurs to me, I don't even know if they make programs like this anymore, but when I worked in Norwich for Anglia Television with Matthew Wright on The Right Stuff... a million years ago, the next door studio was Trisha. And they were constantly trying to find people with extraordinary stories to tell. And it was really hard to find them. 35:20 And they'd have to leaf through sort of magazines, the kind of magazines you find in the dentist's waiting room and try and get subscriptions to all the local paper, early days of the internet. But you'd have to know what you were looking for to find it. Whereas now, you could literally say, find me someone who married their mum. And it would find you everyone who's ever been reported who married their mum. 35:39 Yeah, exactly. Which puts people out of a job. 35:42 That could have been a week's work for somebody to dig into that. Now it's a matter of moments. 35:47 And there's other areas that aren't AI exactly. They're more of an automation thing. I think in some cases... 35:55 things that are just doing a job for someone aren't always AI, you know, they're just clever programming. So for example, if you think about a newsreader who has an autocue in front of them and the text is rolling, traditionally that was a person with a like a scroll wheel that would time it to how the presenter's speaking. That hasn't been a person for some time. Now, first of all, it used to be the presenter would do it themselves with a foot pedal. But now we have a computer that can listen to the words they're saying and match them to the script and match the speed that they're speaking at. 36:28 And if they pause, it will pause. And it's using clever programming, basically, to listen to their voice and track the motion of their voice. So it's, in some cases, a little bit better than the presenter because the presenter can... Excusez-moi? 36:43 Excusez-moi? Show me an AI that could interject with an excusez-moi at that point in such a comical and charming fashion. 36:52 Yeah, so with a foot pedal, the presenter might have to go back to the top of the story and then somehow do that with their foot whilst keeping it together. Whereas if they just begin the next story, the software can tell that they've started a new script and gone to the next story and it will jump straight there. 37:12 Can we put numbers on it? Like I pushed Sean to do and he gallantly refused to tell me out of 100 jobs how many are gone. 37:19 It's very hard to put numbers, but what I definitely can say is that it has massively reduced the entry point. The number of places that are an entry point to broadcasting have reduced because going and being even a runner, the number of jobs for a runner to do have reduced because some of those are now taken up by automated systems. you know the joke is i'll go and get me a coffee but there was a lot more that runners would do and get coffee you know they'd be getting scripts and printing things and doing doing lots of jobs that introduce them to the world of broadcasting and there are just fewer places for them to do that now and maybe they are only getting coffee instead and that is the and that is just one sector we spend an awful lot of time talking about needs and of course we probably don't spend enough time talking about 38:10 The number of entry points for so-called NEETs that no longer exist. Hannah, that was brilliant. Thank you. It also reminded me of a runner who once asked me what I wanted for breakfast. And I'd just arrived from newspapers in television land. And I said, oh, don't be silly. I'll get my own breakfast. And so for a couple of days, I got my own breakfast. And then they took me to one side. 38:30 I think after they'd realized I wasn't some sort of ogre and said, look, could I please get your breakfast? Because if I'm not busy, my job is not guaranteed. And I thought, crikey, I'll have seven bacon sandwiches, please. 38:47 It's 10 to 11. I owe you an apology. There is no evidence whatsoever that P.G. Woodhouse had anything to do with coining the phrase marmalade dropper. It's a sort of Fleet Street tradition to describe the story that makes the person who's reading the newspaper, back in the days when people read newspapers, drop their toast. I think the American equivalent is either coffee spitter or muffin choker. But here in good old Blighty, it's a marmalade dropper. And we haven't done the marmalade droppers yet, although I'm minded to stay with this conversation because let's be honest, it's probably the most important in many ways that we have. 39:20 I'll read you Jacob's message in full because it adds to the idea of this being a lot more important than perhaps we allow when we simply say, oh, are you about to lose your job? Or who thinks their job is AI proof? This is really, really serious. 39:32 James, you're infuriatingly missing the elephant in the room, writes Jacob. This caller just said it's about replacing junior lawyers. That's going back to Sean, isn't it? I have friends in game development, game dev and software development. They're no longer hiring junior developers. The AI does all the junior jobs and then the seniors fix the issues and check the work. You're always talking about NEATs, but this is why there's no work for them. Nobody wants to train anyone, so eventually we won't have anyone to supervise either. 40:02 Listen, I'm going to patronise you slightly while apologising for missing the elephant in the room in that nature will right itself. So you might be right. That might occur or that might appear on the horizon, that possibility. but not least because of the capitalist imperative. If companies or CEOs or shareholders begin to fear that they are rendering themselves redundant, then they will bring humans back to make sure that the supervision is going ahead. But yeah, this is why I keep asking for numbers and nobody wants to give them to me. 40:33 It's going to decimate, quite possibly literally, as in the correct use of that massively misused word, word singular it is going to much much more than decimate uh almost every industry you can think of and and there is a i'm going to say a complacency rather than a smugness to an awful lot of the people who think their jobs are safe adrian there's a lot as a lorry driver thinking that he'd be safe my friend wayne who's a milkman is adamant that milkman are going to be absolutely safe on this mate are you mad I'll be delivering milk by drones by Christmas, probably. 41:07 I would have thought that milkmen are particularly vulnerable to this. As soon as you get driverless vehicles, you're going to have pointless, pointless milkmen and women. But what is already going? What's already gone? And what are the marmalade droppers? What are the things you've used it for or the thing it can do that will make everybody else go, wow? Wow. Did I already correct the other mistake I made this hour? Elvis Costello was responsible for watching The Detectives. Thompson Twins were responsible for We Are Detective. 41:40 Both absolute classics. 41:43 So far as I'm aware, my Hemingway and Vonnegut references are bang on the money. Dan's in Mary, Mark. Another little thing I do as well, which I shouldn't do, I started saying Mary Le Bone a while ago. Apparently that's just really pretentious and wrong. You are supposed to pronounce it not as it is spelt, but as everybody else pronounces it, except pedants and idiots like me. Marley Bone. Dan's in Marley Bone. Dan, what would you like to say? 42:08 Hello there. So I started my own business about three months ago. I'm a chartered building surveyor. I do project consultancy and building surveying. 42:20 Without AI, I've started using AI not to advise clients, but to build the structure of the business. And I haven't had to employ anyone yet. It is unbelievable. I am light years ahead of where I should be, I feel. 42:34 You're gobsmacked. 42:36 Even things like I've set up like 30 parameters on it. Every morning, I want you to do a search of all of the government tenders with all of the criteria and tell me which ones are available now, which ones would suit me. And you imagine... That could take a morning for a human to do that. 42:54 And it's just sitting there waiting on my desk every morning. All of my invoicing, you name it, I've set up systems. 43:02 And it's replaced any need for a PA or admin assistant at this stage as I'm growing. 43:06 Fair enough. Do things change? Obviously, the need for an admin assistant or a PA won't change. 43:12 I will need one eventually, but not yet. 43:15 I hope so. What might change in a slightly different sphere when everybody in the sector is doing what you're doing? 43:24 Say it again, sorry? 43:25 What might change when everybody is doing what you're doing? So, I mean, at the moment it sounds like you might be getting a little bit of a head start on applying for a tender, on applying for a contract, because you've got in on... 43:36 Absolutely, yeah. 43:37 But when everybody is doing it, we're back to where we are now. It's all the same number of troughs, the same number of noses in the same sized trough. 43:45 It's allowed me to get a few years ahead of where I think I should be now. 43:48 Wow, you'd say years, you'd say years. 43:51 I'd say about a year or so. Yeah, what I've got behind me now, what has been created with AI. But one of the things is I can't stop now. So I'll be laying on the sofa on Sunday night and I look up at this one in the morning. I'm still on my phone building templates and systems and things like that. 44:05 It's better than some of the other stuff you could be doing. And are you self-taught as well? You didn't bring someone in to do all this. You've worked it all out for yourself. 44:13 Yeah, I've sat here for the last couple of years whilst I was still employed, figuring it out. It knows my business inside out, so I think eventually… It knows everything inside out. 44:21 That's the thing people don't realise. 44:22 It could package up a business, so you could say, right, I am now a lawyer, I am this. Okay, for £50,000, I'll give you the whole package of a business and tell you how to run it. 44:32 I mean, I can say to it, right, this square mile here, give me all the potential clients and all their phone numbers and all their email addresses. 44:39 Flipping it, yeah. I mean, simple but striking. That's another phrase I should have used alongside Marmalade Chopper. 44:44 And bringing them up and trying to be charming. Can I have a free plug, James? Because I'm struggling. 44:48 Can you have what? 44:50 A free plug. Yeah, of course. Well, I thought you weren't struggling. 44:54 Well, yeah, Christmas is still coming. 44:56 Of course you can have a free plug, because you asked. But before that... 45:01 As in you asked rather than tried cynically to try and smuggle it in without any permissions or warnings. But before that... 45:08 I would only ever ask permission. Yeah, go on. 45:09 How old are you, if you don't mind me asking? 45:12 I'm 47. 45:13 Right, perfect. Go back to when you were 37. You were in the same sector, right? Yep. If you'd set up then, how many people do you think you would have needed? Presuming you had the money to do it. 45:24 I'm doing the work of about four people. All right. Myself being the only, let's say, professional advisory senior person, but three office staff. 45:36 Yeah, that's what I thought. 45:37 So that's extraordinary. It's just a buck of incidents I've started now, and I feel blessed I didn't do it five years ago. Yeah, of course. 45:48 Yeah. 45:49 Well, that's it. It's three jobs. Next week, we'll be talking about NEATS again. And we'll forget, or I'll try not to forget, that one of the reasons why there are no jobs for so many young people, let alone older people who are struggling as well, is because the jobs are literally, in real time, ceasing to exist. 46:05 I've got a theory, though. 46:08 Taxi drivers used to have a human being doing the knowledge and learning every street in London. Now you can give a man or a lady an app on the phone, which would do the same job. But they still earn the same money. They still do the same job. They just didn't do the training. 46:23 Yeah, no, I mean, this is what I mean by nature will right itself. There's a more powerful phrase to describe what I'm trying to describe, but I can't actually remember what it is. If only there was AI presenting this program. There's a phrase to describe the fact that, you know, the system kind of self-repairs and changes as the world changes. 46:42 And you're right up to a point, although a lot of black cab drivers will feel that you have offended their professional honour. 46:49 What is the name of your chartered surveying company for anyone looking for a building chartered surveyor? 46:55 So if you want to save money and you're a leaseholder, leasehold blocks, we're Castle Elm Associates. 47:00 Castle Elm Associates. 47:02 We give you the best advice and try and save everyone money. 47:06 All right, mate. I said you could have a free plug. I didn't say that you could have a couple of minutes. I did not say you could have a couple of minutes. 47:14 You can listen back on Global Player to establish whether or not I said he could have a couple of minutes. You can listen back and hear his plug. He's good at this, isn't he? No wonder he's decided to strike out on his own instead of feathering somebody else's nest. Good luck with it all, Dan. What is it again? Go on. Castle Elm Associates. 47:31 Elm Associates in Marleybone. 47:33 There you go. Lucas, he's almost got a slogan there. If he had a little theme tune, I think he would have sung it. It is coming up to 11 o'clock. We'll stay with elements of this conversation. Nature finds a way. Is that the phrase I'm looking for? Nature finds a way? I think it might be. Staying in tech matters. There's genuinely a global scramble on. How do I know this? My wife sent me a link to a fashion website yesterday asking my opinion on what I thought about a jacket. 47:59 and when she as often happens in these sort of scenarios checked back in with me later I said oh the website was down and she said yeah yeah whatever and I said no really the website was down and she said well it can't be down it's one of the biggest fashion companies in the business and I said come and see and I went to my phone and I clicked on the link that she'd messaged me with the jacket and it said sorry we are experiencing some technical difficulties and And that is how I learned that there was a global scramble on to fix a critical cybersecurity flaw with many websites being taken offline. 48:33 LBC's Will Guyot will join us at about half past 11 to explain why I couldn't access a picture of the jacket that my wife might buy. And some other elements of that story as well. It is four minutes after 11. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Let's sort of dial up the seriousness, perhaps, of the conversation now with a side order of marmalade, as in the jobs that are definitely doomed, the jobs that are already doomed. 49:05 I haven't spoken to anybody yet who has been replaced by AI, and that is what I would like. 49:11 between now and mystery hour at 12 noon so you have been or are about to be replaced by ai 03456060973 is the number that you need and the thing it can do that will make relative innocence go wow i i think that is one of the best ways to turn people on to just how enormous and immense the technology is is becoming so the thing you got it to do the thing it's done for you a last caller very strong on this you know set up a business from scratch three months ago would have needed four staff has done it all on his own that's that's huge right it's not necessarily good it's good for you it's good for him but it's not necessarily good for you if you're if you're looking to get a start in the chartered surveying world or you're you know you're an office worker looking for a gig and That's what many points being made by many people, but underpinning lots and lots and lots of them is the gnashing of teeth and the wailing that we do about so-called needs without often mentioning just how many entry point positions 50:19 no longer exist. 50:21 Sam makes a brilliant point in Kent. I know you're using this as an in to AI, but if 5,000 manual jobs were going in a car plant or an oil rig, there would be government talks and bailouts, etc. 50:35 Is that not happening now because profits are the be-all and end-all rather than it being due to green issues or Brexit? No, I think actually, Sam, not to pop your balloon, it's because these are 5,000 jobs worldwide, as far as I know, as opposed to 5,000 jobs. 50:49 in one town. So the reason why governments get involved in factory closures and the like is because they take such an enormous economic bite out of a self-contained community that it becomes a matter of national interest at the very least and of politics indubitably. So you're right. 51:11 It's hard to imagine a kind of campaign to look after the bankers. Well, except after the 2008 financial crisis that was caused by bankers when there was a very powerful campaign led by right-wing mouthpieces and client journalists to stop bashing the bankers. So you can have a campaign designed to protect bankers, but not when they're in danger of losing their jobs, more when they're in danger of being blamed for massive international problems that they caused. And, of course, that's when the Daily Mail and their fellow travellers stepped forward to try to pin it all on Gordon Brown. 51:44 I like this from Fraser. I recently used it to pass an exam to get a job. I would never have passed it without AI. Now, that worries me, Fraser, without more detail. 51:53 It's not Fraser Knight, is it? He hasn't got a job in the LBC newsroom as a consequence of using AI to pass his journalism exams, I hope. Because if you are being completely straight with me, does that mean that you're not actually qualified to do the job that you got? as a consequence of using AI to do the exam? Or does the fact that you used AI to do the exam mean that you can use AI to do the job and nobody's got anything to worry about? 52:16 You know, I point out to you sometimes that when people come on the show or the station, it happens with everybody, and they're a bit nervous, they sometimes say the presenter's name instead of their own name. They sometimes say, oh, hello, James. Oops. 52:29 It's just one of those weird things that happens. Ian has taken it a step further in this text from Ian in Surbiton who writes, hi, Ian. 52:38 Okay. I mean, there are a couple of Ians on LBC, but I'm not mixed up with them very often. I'm retired, but my old job as a golf greenkeeper already has AI-controlled robots cutting grass. Other jobs within the golf industry will go soon as well. 52:53 Quite a few people who think that because their work is manual, it will be okay. In which case, join me at Charing Cross Station at 8 o'clock in the morning watching the rather hilarious robot cleaner chugging across the concourse. And remember, I've already suggested you could tie a few dogs to it and then you've got an AI dog walker. What else could that robot sort of double up as? Could deliver drinks probably right around the station. So it could also mow the lawn if you stuck a few blades on its bottom. Might need to rephrase that. Rob writes, there's a knock-on effect, the people not going into those jobs due to being replaced by AI. 53:27 Other industries rely on those people going to work, as in you're talking about your sandwich shops, your dry cleaners, all the things we talked about quite a lot during lockdown. If the number of people in that building there is reducing, or at least the number of people in that business there is reducing, then what about all the businesses that essentially feed... Those workers, they're doomed as well. 53:48 Another translator who has already lost their job because of what you describe as IA, but I'm sure that was a typo and not an indication of how reliable you would be as a translator. And this is really interesting from Abby. I do admin for a trade union. 54:03 As you can imagine, we are all about the preservation of jobs. But AI could absolutely do our jobs. And they could do the job of advising people and eventually representing them. Our union is pretty anti-AI. But every time we try to negotiate our own terms and conditions, for example, a four-day working week, our General Secretary says that won't be possible without introducing AI. So it's almost a threat. I think it's awful and will destroy so many jobs eventually. That's fascinating. I mean, trade unions... 54:33 charged with protecting jobs even at the extent of the capitalist imperative it's one of the great tensions of of of humanity really isn't it is the pursuit of profit versus the protection of workers we're living in an era now where the pursuit of profit has massively massively outweighed the protection of workers If you go back to the 1970s, there were examples where perhaps the protection of workers had trumped the pursuit of profit to such a point that companies became unviable. There's always a balance to be struck between the two principles, the protection of the worker and the pursuit of the profit. 55:06 But there is an organization dedicated to the protection of the worker. 55:11 whose work could be done by AI that exists chiefly as a consequence of the pursuit of profit. School leaders, Mark tells me, are inundated with AI-generated parent-carer complaints, often with unclear desired outcomes. It's the elephant in the room when it comes to head teacher retention. The amount of time you just get AI. So it might be great if you're getting it to challenge a parking ticket or a planning application or something like that because it will cut through all of the noise and give you exactly what you need to submit the thing that you want to submit. 55:43 But if you're mischievous... 55:45 If you are a pest or even if you're just misguided, you're going to be bombarding schools with complaints and it takes time and money to deal with them. Head teacher retention being affected, Ofsted, funding, pupil behaviour, all cited as triggers for those leaving the profession, says Mark. But the time taken up responding to AI complaints means that leaders can't concentrate on teaching and learning and helping pupils flourish. I could go on. I could go on. 56:12 But I won't. This one simply says, please don't share my name. I've been working in IT for over 30 years. Myself and dozens of colleagues are now losing our jobs due to AI. 12 minutes after 11 is the time. More of this, but also the marmalade dropper. 56:28 The conversation that will make the rest of us go, what? It can do that? 56:34 03456060973. Ash is in Milton Keynes. Ash, what have you got? 56:39 Hi. 56:39 Yeah, I'm going to take this into a slightly different direction in the sense that I think AI does have the ability to essentially, you know, spark the creative spirit. Do you? Let me give you an example. That's interesting. I'm a singer-songwriter, and I've written many, many, many songs about 20 years ago. And I recorded them, and I produced them, I mixed them, I put them on a CD. There was no way of distributing that stuff. And then it kind of died for about 20 years because I had children and work and all that kind of stuff. 57:14 But very recently, I had resurrected a song. 57:18 And I then decided to create a video for it. And the video is absolutely astonishing. It's incredible. I did have the ethical... AI did the video. 57:31 You used AI to do the video. 57:33 To make the video, yeah. 57:34 Yeah. 57:35 I did obviously put some prompts in. 57:36 Yeah, sure. 57:37 But it allowed me to do something that would never have ever happened in the sense that have I taken somebody's job away? No, because I wouldn't have thought of outsourcing creating that video. 57:50 But it has. It has somehow made an abstract idea that I had in a song and put it into images. And it is absolutely phenomenal. 58:00 Give me an idea of what you asked it to do, if you can. And remember that you pretend it shouldn't be too difficult that you're speaking to a complete ignoramus. 58:09 OK, so I put my song in and it scanned the lyrics. So it would kind of find the narrative of the song. But I asked it to do it in the style of things that I was interested in. So I put in things like David Lynch, Yang Svankmeyer. 58:27 I asked it to create it in a way that was slightly distressed, so it wasn't so shiny and polished. 58:35 And I asked it to use puppets and dolls. 58:41 And it just put it all together into a narrative that really encapsulated what the entire song was about. 58:50 And, I mean, you're better qualified than anyone to say that because you wrote The Flipping Thing. Has it carried your work to a bigger audience? 58:58 Not really because I haven't really advertised it. 59:01 Well, let's get some. I'm going to have to get you to just tell Eleanor if you want because I'd like to see it to check. 59:07 Absolutely. I think you'd love it. I think you'd absolutely love it. 59:10 There you go. I hadn't heard of Yang... What's his name again? 59:14 Yang Sankmire. 59:15 Yang Sankmire. What did he make? 59:17 He's a Czech sort of abstract puppet theatre. Oh, well, that's why I haven't. 59:24 I mean, I've got nothing against puppets. But when you said David Lynch, I thought, oh, you're going to mention some directors I really dig now. And then you said Yang Shankmeyer. And I thought, I've never heard of Yang Shankmeyer. 59:33 Well, I'm sure you will. 59:35 Well, I will. I will. So stay on with Eleanor, just in case what you're doing is mischievous and you're about to introduce us to puppet porn. 59:44 which no one really needs in their life. And then I will give it a shout in a moment, Ash, and drive some traffic so that other people also can see what happens when AI meets genuine creativity. Because that's a fascinating factor, isn't it, in this conversation, which we haven't touched on before. We talk about AI replacing creativity, but this is what happens when AI meets genuine creativity. I don't know why I keep saying creativity. It's creativity. It's also, this isn't an opinion, this is counting, 11.15. It is 18 minutes after 11. 60:17 You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. That touched the nerve. That message from Mark about AI-generated complaints, we haven't even touched on this in the past, have we? 60:26 Various people in touch with similar. Paul, who's in the Metropolitan Police, says that he wouldn't believe the number of AI complaints that are submitted to the police every day. And of course, what's the word I want? Spurious? Is that the word I'm looking for? You've got no way of knowing whether they're spurious or not. But if it only takes a second to do what would once have taken hours, then a spurious or an inauthentic, you know, a dodgy complainant is going to be able to take up loads of time. And the system, of course, demands that every complaint is dealt with, particularly if it's going into a public body. 60:57 So if it's going into a school, it's going into... 61:00 a police service, then the system demands that the complaint is dealt with. And I imagine that if they deployed AI to deal with the AI-generated complaints, then there would be quite quickly outcry about the fact that a really genuine complaint had been dealt with by AI. 61:19 Whether AI made a mistake or not, it feels a little bit remiss to say, here's a complaint about police brutality. It's been dealt with by AI. So there's an awful lot here that we're barely addressing, which is why I said that thing. It's why I started with that Hemingway quote. about bankruptcy, which I've now been so patronizing to other people for misremembering that I'm terrified of misremembering it myself. How did you go bankrupt? Bill asked. Two ways, Mike said. Gradually and then certainly. 61:50 And yes, I am available. 61:52 You know, rehearsal schedule and radio show permitting, I am available to play small roles in West End Place. 61:59 I imagine my next caller is as well, Don Jolly. Is it the Dom Jolly, or are there two Dom Jollies? Is it Dom Jolly as in Penzance in Cornwall? Dom, what do you want to say? Hello, James. I am actually, despite what you think, a first-time caller. 62:12 I wasn't the angry farmer Charlie. You were, you liar. I just wasn't. 62:16 You weren't the angry farmer Charlie, but you were Humphrey in Wimbledon. 62:19 I was Humphrey in Wimbledon. Yeah, so you're not a first-time caller, you liar. No, I'm a first-time caller to you, to your show. 62:25 Oh, well, you tried to get on this show as Humphrey in Wimbledon, but we saw through your ruse, Dom, Johnny. Yeah, you did. Anyway, OK. 62:32 But I'm on tour. I'm driving down to Penzance at the moment. I'm listening to you talking about AI. And, yeah, it is panicky. Like, I write books. I got it to write a fake chapter of my book to see what it looked like. And it was frighteningly... Like, I mean, it wasn't great, but it was like pretty good. But I'm thinking about comedy. Like, I mean, I'm starting to see AI comedians being shown and they're sort of sucking up other people's jokes and telling them. I can't see how an AI is ever going to replace a live comedy experience. 63:04 I know there's the ABBA, you know, Atavad or, you know. 63:08 Yeah, but that would be, you could have a Tommy Cooper. 63:12 live experience with a hologram, if they'd filmed enough, if he was still with, or a comedian who, so it would be a different thing. It's a simulacrum, if that's the correct word to use. That's right. It's not the same. And what is it? Because we're talking about a sort of quiddity, an essence of humankind that can only be conveyed by humans. And every time I hear people say things like this, I kind of silently add the word yet. 63:35 We can't imagine it yet. 63:38 But I think it's the difference between Well, I suppose this is what freaks me out between sort of pure originality. And I suppose if you're sucking up every kind of comedic thought in the last 50 years, maybe you do get to some weird originality. But I don't know. I'm thinking, you know, I'm on tour at the moment. I'm driving around. I'm thinking, well, it'd be great if I could AI myself somewhere. But of course, in the end, they go, well, we don't need you. We'll just, you know, we'll... That's it. Well, I don't know how it's going to be replaced. 64:05 And there's the magic as well. I mean, you might be able to write jokes, probably not very good ones yet, but they could do that or they could just memorise every one-liner that's ever been written and just chuck them out machine gun style, which, of course, some very good comics do. But what you're never going to have is the ability to respond in a moment to a heckler or respond in a moment to, I don't know, something falling over on the stage behind you. I don't quite ever imagine that being something that you can... 64:33 Except the skill in comedy, which I certainly don't have, but is to sort of fake spontaneity. And it's like, you know, a heckler response is often you've got like 30 of them just sitting there. And actually, if you're AI, you're going to have 600 of them waiting. So it might be better with hecklers than real comedians. Also, it doesn't have the ego. So it just analyses the heckler and chooses the heckler kill and goes for it. So I don't know. 64:59 Horses for courses. 64:59 Where are you tonight? 65:01 I'm on my way to Penzance. I love Penzance. I'm in Cornwall for three days. Budenway Bridge, which is a nice bit of the tour, actually. It's lovely. Good. 65:10 Enjoy. Still a couple of tickets available if people want to come along? 65:14 I don't know, actually. I haven't looked, but, yeah. 65:17 If there are, there will be. If there are, there will be. Dom, thank you. Take care. Humphrey in Wimbledon. I don't know if you ever heard him ringing Tom Sawbreak. But now you know the truth. This is like The Wizard of Oz, where Toto pulls the curtain back. And Charlie the Farmer... 65:32 An awful lot of people did. 65:36 I had a moment. It's one of the maddest calls I've ever taken. Do you remember when Mr. Angry was on Steve Wright? Do you remember that? I mean, you have to be of a certain age to remember that. Dom Jolly will remember it. 65:48 Steve Wright, I miss him. Such a lost, beautiful man. 65:54 And he had this character, Mr. Angry, on his Radio 1 show, and I think it carried on when he moved to Radio 2 as well. And I took a call a couple of years ago from a farmer called Charlie who was, if Mr. Angry had a son who became a farmer, that would have been, you find it on YouTube. In fact, oh no, I can't tell you about that yet. I can tell you about something very exciting next week. 66:17 And a significant number of people, because he was so bonkers, he was so cross, so cross that a lot of people thought it was fake. 66:26 And quite a few people who thought it was fake were adamant that it was actually Dom. And he had to intervene online and clear up the fact. It was a genuine person. I don't know whether it was a genuine farmer or not, but it was not a parody. I think at one point he said he was an electrical engineer. 66:41 Perhaps he's related to Kemi Bader not. Anyway, Carolyn is in Barnes. Carolyn, what made you pick up the phone? 66:48 A call you had a couple of calls ago about some dude saying he was being creative and not stealing jobs by making his own music video out of AI flop. And I am a filmmaker. I'm a writer and a director. And I can tell you... 67:06 People like him are taking jobs. 67:09 Well, he couldn't have a fool. I don't want to have a fight between the two of you. I don't want to referee a fight. But I think his point was, there's no earthly way he ever would have been able to afford or commission or make a video for his song. But what, of course, he opens the door to is the possibility of people who can afford to hire somebody like you not doing so because they will use AI instead. But I think that chap was probably... not guilty of anything other than naivety. 67:40 Well, yeah, I agree with that. However, I will say that when your prompt is, give me something like David Lynch and that Czech guy and whatever, the way AI... 67:50 Hang on a minute. I wrote it down. 67:53 Yang... Oh, no, I can't read my own writing. 67:55 Yang somebody. 67:56 Yeah, we shouldn't be so dismissive of him. He's an auteur. He's an artist. He's a genius. Yang Schlangmeier. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yang Sankmeier. He's a puppet man. Yeah, the puppet guy. Yeah. 68:06 Regardless, what's happening is the way AI is able to reproduce those is because AI has stolen from the work of those people. 68:13 It's also very true. 68:14 Yeah, I mean, everything AI gives you has been stolen from a creative like me, like Yang, like David Lynch, like anyone. I mean, it's gotten so I'm terrified to have my stuff online because AI is just going to steal it. And I have already experienced, you know, Scripts being taken so that they can be written by AI. I've received AI notes from a producer who didn't even read the script. Are you serious? A script that I wrote. 68:45 Yeah. Yeah. And this is becoming more and more common. So there's one little niche of my industry that's losing work is people who read scripts for a living. And there's a lot of those people. It's called giving coverage. 68:58 Do you know, I find that quite surprising, actually, because I'd have thought the one area where you would need the human touch is the sort of mercurial nature of artistic magic. But what they're looking for is prompts, right? They're looking for the next so-and-so. So here is a very successful show that did X, Y, and Z. You ask AI to read something and say, does it do X, Y, and Z? And they come back and say, no, it doesn't. And they send it back to you with an AI-generated note. 69:26 Yeah. And I'll tell you, ask yourself why there's so much rubbish on Netflix and et cetera, et cetera. 69:32 Well, Netflix is, I read yesterday, is in financial peril precisely because it isn't coming up with enough hits. 69:38 Yeah. And because people are also, many people, not all people, of course, but people are willing to settle for the same garbage that hits the same place. 69:50 ai driven notes rather than having that genuine spark of human creativity it's entirely derivative and and we overlook at our peril the fact that if something is derivative then it is by definition derived from something else yeah yeah people don't understand what that word means are you are you the uh 2024 winner of the bafta rowcliffe new writing for comedy award yes i yes i am Well, there you go. 70:18 With my son, Sean Stevenson. Oh, that's lovely. 70:21 So you're Carolyn Saunders. 70:23 I am indeed. 70:24 And it was Hell's Bells, a script that you co-wrote with your son that won the award. You've won lots of awards, actually. And even somebody like you. Well, I know it's a devil of a business, yours. But you already feel the hot breath. You can have this line if you want, Carolyn. I'm going to go a little bit poetic, seeing as it's you. You can already feel the hot breath of AI upon your artistic neck. 70:47 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's like a cause celeb for me now. I'm just, I'm, I'm livid. I'm livid about what is happening. And I'm livid about the number of filmmakers who are being told there's no turning back. You got to use it. It's just a tool. I mean, there's a, there is now a whole movement in my industry of people who want to, you know, have their, have, 71:14 have a note at the end of their film that says this is completely human made yeah yeah well i think that will become a badge of honor i mean it already is of course but it may become more and more prevalent you you just and there's something really i don't know what there's loads of words you could use here clinical anodyne surgical there's like just something feels wrong if it hasn't got that organic input that organic combination thank you caroline that's actually really important i apologize almost for for jumping up to defend the uh the the lad with the song but um but you're right it does if you're if you're saying make it like so and so then you're kind of stealing from so and so we'll go it's up next to talk us through i mean it's quite a big story but my introduction to it was my inability yesterday to look at a jacket that mrs o'brien wanted to buy but which she wanted my opinion on first um obviously a global meltdown of internet access is considerably more important than that but sometimes it's quite helpful to provide the entry point 72:17 there you go it's a phrase that's popped up in the course of today's program to a much bigger issue um that's the macro and the micro for you the meta and the not meta uh half past 11 and dominic ellis is here with your headlines It is 33 minutes after 11. 72:33 Donald Trump has been expressing admiration for something. I thought we would have a little bit of fun with working out what it is. You may not already be aware of this story. So has Donald Trump been expressing admiration for a Vladimir Putin's war crimes? 72:50 B, the muscular bottom of a Republican senator, or C, Kim Jong-un's holiday home in North Korea. So has Donald Trump been expressing admiration for Vladimir Putin's war crimes in Ukraine? 73:06 for the muscular bottom of a Republican senator, or is it C, Kim Jong-un's holiday home in North Korea? I will reveal that to you shortly. But first, there I was yesterday, minding my own business, when my phone pinged with a message from my beloved. What do you think of this? The message said. I've still got it here. So I clicked on it, on the message, and then I clicked upon the link. 73:33 And I discovered that the website of a ridiculously overpriced clothing company was unavailable. And indeed, it still is. Patience, please, it said. It'll be worth the wait. We're just fixing a few technical issues before we welcome you on the site. 73:51 And then a little catchphrase that would give away the company that I'm talking about. And given that they haven't paid me or sent me any free clothes, I'm not going to do that. Although if they were in the business of sending out free clothes, there is rather a nice suede jacket available at the moment that I would quite like. like to have a look at so when i got home yesterday evening and mrs o'brien said to me what did you think of that jacket i said oh i'm terribly sorry darling i haven't i haven't been able to look at it and she said oh yeah why not i said the whole website was down and she said what the website of blank and i said yes and i showed her and i was actually for once telling the truth as to why i hadn't done the thing that she had asked me to do the more important question though and will guy is here to answer it is what is php and why did it spark a global cyber security scramble 74:37 What a great question to start with. PHP is a coding language that's used on the internet and it powers about 70% of the world's websites. And you wouldn't know that unless somebody told you. Quite a lot of places and organizations use it. So, for example, if you're a user of a blog, for example, maybe you've got some wedding photos in an album online. or maybe like me i started a james o'brien fan site on the internet in 2014 those sorts of things could potentially be impacted by this and what's happened here this is one of the first examples you know they were saying that ai could start finding the flaws and vulnerabilities and stuff. 75:19 This is a very real world example of that. So about a week or so ago, these two big vulnerabilities were found and they were major vulnerabilities, which essentially meant that people could take over these web servers without even having the password or anything. They'd be able to start extracting information from them. Now, normally what happens in this situation, the company, the developer gets time to start making a fix that they put online. But what seemingly happened here was the information leaked or somebody else got it the same time from the very same chatbot that was being used to test this in artificial intelligence. 75:55 So the vulnerability was big. We knew it was coming. And then this morning we've had confirmation, it might have been late last night, that Amazon were actually hit by this four days before it was announced. So it was clearly out there in the domain of hackers and nefarious individuals. 76:12 Who would have been looking for it? Who would have charged the... What's the correct word to use? Bot? 76:18 Yeah. So a security researcher, I think, chucked. 76:21 But anywhere. We don't even know where. 76:24 No, we have no information as to where that was or who that was or was it somebody... 76:28 But they would have set it on PHP. It would have said, go into the source code of PHP. Find vulnerabilities. And find vulnerabilities. 76:36 And it came back and said... And it said, here you go. Here's two things you can do. and those things exist in that have existed in the code for over a decade so this could have happened a decade ago and that's why there's a huge problem because you know like I said so much of the internet uses this code and it's not just um like I was saying the James O'Brien fan site or the wedding photos it's Amazon um my example is going to seem weird but I was trying to get the the the bin day for my house today and i couldn't get onto the swindon.gov.uk website because that was taken down for a similar reason so you mean just hang on a minute i mean this is important stuff you mean you couldn't remember which bins it was yeah yeah because because it hasn't been a bank holiday or anything like that so there's no mystery about what day they're coming i didn't know it was the blue one or the green 77:24 Yeah, thank you. I just think it's important. So just to clarify, can we clip this bit up for the awards entry? I'm a hard hit interviewer of the year stuff. 77:33 I messaged I messaged the bosses at LBC yesterday ahead of this happening and saying at the moment, I don't know if this is a really important LBC story, or it isn't a story for anybody. But what has become apparent is the speed that Hackers and nefarious individuals are using these exploits and essentially taking over websites. And the biggest issue at the moment is knowing what's fixed and what's not. You can assume that most big websites are being fixed right now. But if you're somebody like the owner of a ghost website, like I said, it was in my best intentions in 2014 that James O'Brien fan site was going to be the most up-to-date source of James O'Brien information on the internet. 78:12 All seven members of that fan site remain eternally grateful to you. 78:16 But I might have lost interest. The point is I might have lost interest in developing that in 2018. And then it's still live and that's not patched. And somebody might turn up at the fan site, put in their details to get my latest email about what you're up to and find themselves in a situation where they've been hacked or their information goes to somebody. 78:32 Oh, wow. Okay. Gosh, yes. 78:35 These things are often written, James, in a way that's infathomable or really hard to understand. But when one cyber security group of experts have a severity rating out of 10, they gave this a 9.2. So it's about as big as it's got so far. 78:50 Is there, I mean, people who are worried can't really do anything, can they? I mean, stay off websites for a while or, I mean, particularly ones that, as you say, have kind of sunk to the bottom of the Internet sea and been forgotten. Yeah. You end up accidentally on one of those. You could give your details to somebody. 79:09 Yeah, this is the challenge at the moment. It's like we don't know what's fixed and what isn't fixed. And given that you've been talking about AI and everything else, this is the beginning of these problems. Because last week it was declared by Anthropic that there's a new thing coming called like an AI worm. And essentially that's code that might copy itself. It might copy itself onto your dodgy fire stick that somebody might have to stream those 3 p.m. football games on a Saturday afternoon. And it will take itself off the internet and infect all of these devices for a period of when it might want to unleash something. 79:44 And there's this sort of whole level of control that we've lost as humanity because the computers are better than us now at finding the errors. 79:55 Wow. You've written a piece on this, an explainer on the LBC website. What is PHP and is my old website, my old wedding website, a hacking risk by LBC's tech correspondent, Will Gaia? I like that figure. You know how I like things to be distilled down to easily understandable numbers, but a 9.9. Have we had one of those before? No, 9.2. 80:15 9.2, forgive me. We haven't had one of those before. 80:20 And the challenge with all of this is how many times, how many 9.2s do you get when people are still listening? Because we talk about data breaches so regularly, you know, another day, another day, data breach, another warning. How long till people switch off to the severity of this stuff? And that's the problem. 80:35 Oh, wow. Do we know if the NHS is affected at all? 80:39 I don't think they've been impacted with this one. There will be some websites which will have, I'm sure they've got some websites with PHP, but some of their services were impacted earlier this week when Google's cloud services went down. So that was several days ago when the big server warehouse in Cheshire went bang temporarily. 80:58 That stopped various bits of the NHS and even caught service video links. stop working as a result of that so as a society we need more internet resilience i think that's something that we need to push for because obviously as fewer companies run this stuff and people rely on open source coding etc etc etc um that's what we have to do 81:18 Yes, I wasn't rounding you up then. I was signaling to Eleanor that I want the clip of Donald Trump admiring something ready to play next. Sorry, did I say that out loud? Before you go, on the long list of things I do on the radio that have no business being on the radio, you've been zooming in and out of your own face during the course of this conversation. 81:35 Or was that AI? I've got a technical problem. That should be switched off. My computer tells me it's switched off. 81:42 It was really effective because when it zoomed in, I thought you were about to say something huge. I thought you were about to go, and we could, we're all, there it's gone again. We're all doomed. And the second question is, why are you wearing Nick Ferrari spectacles? 81:53 He lends them. 81:55 They're not rose-tinted. Will Guy at LBC's technology correspondent. Thank you very much indeed for that. And you can read Will's roundup of this story on the LBC website, lbc.co.uk. What is PHP and is my old wedding website a hacking risk? Now, the multiple choice question was, has Donald Trump been expressing admiration for A, Vladimir Putin's war crimes in Ukraine? B, The muscular bottom. 82:24 Americans call them asses, don't they? Do they call them bottoms? Anyway, ass, the muscular ass, not doing an accent, of a Republican senator. Or C, Kim Jong-un's recently revealed holiday hope. Now, I have enormous sympathy for everybody who responded to that question by answering all three, which is a possibility. But the correct answer was actually B. 82:50 so he's over here i'm over here and i'm studying his body i've never studied the body of a man before it's not my thing nothing wrong with it of course nothing i always proceeded by saying nothing wrong but it's never been my thing to be honest with you but i looked at his ass and then i looked at his legs and it might i said his ass is like It's like a pile of muscle. 83:22 Then I looked at his legs and I said, man, his feet are big. 83:29 Thank God old Joe Biden didn't get elected, eh? Because sometimes he'd go off on tangents that made absolutely no sense whatsoever. I've got to play that once more because he does this thing that he's too stupid to realize that he's doing. He says, I've never done this before. And then he says, well, I always do this thing. So whenever I'm talking about how much I admire a man's ass, I always start off by saying there's nothing wrong with this. This is the first time I think that buttocks have been brought into the assessment of Ohio lieutenant governors, in this case, John Husted, the lieutenant governor of Ohio. 84:03 And there is the crowd. So you often wonder what happens when this was a rally in North Carolina, when the absolute faithful are presented with incontrovertible evidence. that at the very least their hero's feet are made of clay, and at the very most that he has gone completely round the bend. They can never admit it. Unless this is, we should have got Dom Jolly back to analyse whether or not this is comedy genius, and the problem lies with all the people who don't get this hilarious joke. 84:35 So he's over here, I'm over here. 84:37 And I'm studying his body. I've never studied the body of a man before. It's not my thing. 84:44 Nothing wrong with it, of course. 84:46 Nothing. I always proceeded by saying, nothing wrong. But it's never been my thing, to be honest with you. 84:54 But I looked at his ass. 84:58 And then I looked at his legs. 85:01 And I said, his ass is like a pile of muscle. 85:07 Then I looked at his legs and I said, man, his feet are big. 85:12 It's 11.49. Okay, laughter aside, Donald Trump admiring the buttocks of a Republican politician. 85:22 Steve Wyckoff was also expressing admiration yesterday in his case. for Vladimir Putin. So far, so diplomatic, perhaps, you might argue. But I want to just make you aware of a few things before I... You may already have heard this, but the clip that I'm going to play you. But before we play it, I should probably tell you that yesterday, the families of six people killed in a drone strike in a park near Kharkiv were still holding funerals. 85:54 The youngest victim of that attack was a one-year-old girl. I think the number of children estimated to have been abducted by, Ukrainian children estimated to have been abducted by the Russians currently stands at 35,000. 86:08 The Guardian recently reported a Russian strategy document, it actually got hold of it, showing the Kremlin's potential to black out Ukrainian cities this winter, cutting off about 90% of electricity to cities like Kiev and Odessa and Kharkiv. 86:26 It looks as if they are moving forward with that plan. That would create what can be categorically described as a humanitarian crisis. We know about the bombing campaigns in Chechnya and in Georgia and in Syria. We know about the thousands of Russian citizens jailed for dissent. We know about the murder of Alexander Litvinenko in this country. 86:50 We know about the murder of Alex Navalny in a Russian jail. 86:55 We know about the violent deaths of prominent opposition journalists and politicians in barely disguised assassinations and poisonings. 87:04 And we know that Donald Trump has struggled to disguise his enormous admiration for the man responsible for all of that. Or the politician that Nigel Farage admires most in the world, of course. We should always remind ourselves of that. It's easy to get confused. Donald Trump is the bravest man that Nigel Farage has ever met. Vladimir Putin is the politician he admires most in the world. And the latter is responsible for that catalogue of criminality and cruelty that I shared with you a moment ago. 87:37 And of course, I've barely scratched the surface. 87:43 I barely scratched the surface. 87:46 So when Steve Wyckoff, a sort of fellow real estate tycoon who Donald Trump has appointed alongside his real estate tycoon son-in-law to negotiate peace everywhere, really, Russia and Ukraine, but also Iran and elsewhere, not exactly overburdened by success, it's fair to say, but the more Donald Trump reveals himself to be all of the things that his harshest critics have long been convinced that he is, the more you wonder whether the concept of success in Donald Trump's inner circle is remotely similar to the concept of success in the civilized world. 88:23 I suspect not. And Wyckoff was with Putin yesterday. 88:30 And something's happened in the last couple of weeks. If Simon Marks was here, he would almost certainly put it down to the imminence of the midterms. 88:39 Whether or not Putin has decided to call in as much as he possibly can because Trump is likely to be wounded by the midterms or because American democracy could be completely upended by Trump's response to failure. in the midterm elections whether or not trump is desperate because he can see humiliation on the horizon so he's desperately uh writhing uh in search and wriggling and searching for for something that he might be able to offer to the american public as a success or victory i don't know but i think the imminence of the midterms is relevant to the sense that in the last two weeks that masks have completely slipped Donald Trump is a Russian asset. 89:21 Whether or not it is conscious or not, he is on Russia's side against Vladimir Zelensky's Ukraine. He is on Vladimir Putin's side. 89:32 And who gets to be surprised by this? 89:35 Who gets to be surprised? 89:40 I don't think we'll be seeing any mayor call bars from British politicians and pundits anytime soon. The people, the long, long, long list of people who told us that Trump was going to be great or they loved him because he upsets all the right people or the woke karate would be creaking in their boots. 89:56 I don't think you'll be getting any apologies, mayor call bars, any more than you did with Liz Truss. The Daily Mail, incidentally, has moved effortlessly. from describing Liz Truss as the answer to the country's problems and an economic genius who should be feted on every street corner, to describing Kemi Baden-Ock as all of the... The coverage of Liz Truss and the coverage of Kemi Baden-Ock are interchangeable. 90:20 I don't think I need to remind you what happened when Liz Truss actually achieved power, but the Daily Mail have apparently learned absolutely nothing from cheerleading for her. 90:30 They're deploying exactly the same tactics and even the same language when cheering for Cammy Baden-Ock. So don't expect them or their columnists anytime soon to be apologizing or accounting for the fact that they have disappeared. They long disappeared so far up Donald Trump's fundament that you could barely make out their shoelaces. 90:50 But this is the grossest yet from one of the cronies, one of the acolytes, one of the over-promoted inadequates that make up his inner circle. 91:01 This is the worst yet because of those things that Putin has done, will continue to do, and will always do for as long as he remains in power. 91:14 You talk so much about my president, President Trump, being a humanitarian. You are a humanitarian also, sir. I salute that. I commend you and I thank you again. 91:26 What do you do? I mean, how do you analyze this? 91:30 The free world, the United States of America, I can't use some of the language that I want to use. I very rarely feel frustrated by that. It's part of the skills that you need to do this job in that you can express strong opinions without having to use strong language. 91:47 But very, very occasionally, and I mean like not even once a year, very occasionally, I want to go full Chaucer. I want to go absolutely Anglo-Saxon on these people because I don't have the vocabulary to express disgust without using disgusting language. But the idea of the United States of America as represented by Steve Whitcoff sucking up to the war criminal Vladimir Putin in such an egregious and unctuous fashion it turns my stomach it curdles my consciousness it is one of the most disgusting things we will ever witness on the world stage and we are so used to it by now we're so accustomed to the depravity that it registers, but it doesn't register like it should, and it doesn't register like it would have done five, ten, fifteen years ago, even perhaps six months ago. 92:51 You, sir, are a humanitarian. 35,000 abducted children, God knows how many dead, schools bombed, children being buried, a little girl in a pushchair blown to smithereens in Kharkiv just this week, the funeral's still ongoing, and this man... 93:07 stands there as a representative of Western values. 93:12 Western values that people like him will tell you are under threat because there are too many kebab shops in South London. 93:20 The representative of Western values cosying up to the war criminal in terms that would embarrass a teenage poet. 93:31 Absolutely pathetic. And I don't know because Simon's not with us today. He'll be on tonight at 10. 93:38 I don't know what the American media does with stuff like this anymore. But I do know that an awful lot of them look the other way. And an awful lot of them are so on board with the regime that they will pretend not to acknowledge or appreciate the horror of what we just heard. And an awful lot of them are on board with it. 93:59 They won't be pretending. They love it. I'll leave you to wonder what British commentators and politicians like Nigel Farage and Dick Littlejohn at the Daily Mail do in circumstances like this. But I'm afraid that expecting a human response of the kind that you might have would involve them possessing anything that remotely resembles a conscience. 94:19 Cheerleading for a war criminal. 94:22 That's Steve Wyckoff, cheerleading for the man who can't suck up hard enough to the war criminal. 94:30 That's Donald Trump. 94:33 It's 11.58, nearly 11.59. Sorry, I didn't realize that was going to take me so long. So apologies to Wayne and Bill and Boris, not that one, and Steve and Danny and others. We will obviously return to the AI conversation probably sooner rather than later. And I think we need some light relief. I really do. I think we need some light relief. 94:56 And that is good, because it's Thursday and it's very nearly 12 noon, and that means that it is time for Mystery Hour, your weekly opportunity to achieve the sort of satisfaction not available anywhere else on your radio. If you're not familiar with this feature, I think I can safely say that it's rather different from anything else that you have heard on this programme. It is silly, it is hopefully funny, but it is also illuminating. 95:19 Because someone rings in with a question on any subject under the sun, except motoring, he says, sotto voce, because occasionally motoring questions do sneak through the net and sometimes even turn out to be quite interesting. But any subject under the sun, and then somebody else rings in with the answer. And somehow between those two relatively ordinary things, the extraordinary happens. 95:44 This is LBC from Global. Leading Britain's conversation. Mystery Hour with James O'Brien. 95:53 Oh, three minutes after 12 is the time. Who, why, what, where, when, wherefore, whither, whence. Whichever interrogative pronoun you prefer, your question will be welcome on Miss Jower. 96:04 Unless it's about motoring. You ring in, seriously, and you say, why does this happen? What's that about? Where does that come from? Whither, that's, whence, that, wherefore, the other, art thou, Romeo? And someone else rings in with the answer. The only real rules are that you're not allowed to look stuff up. It's a weird one, that, isn't it? If you followed this... for a while it used to matter people used to do it they would google something and then ring in an answer and we could tell that they'd rung in having google because you can always tell when someone's reading I don't know why it became a thing and then I had to point out that that's a really silly way to behave and now of course it never happens but just in case you are new to this and you were thinking oh I'll get myself on the radio I'll look it up on the old internet don't because you will be banned from listening to this program forever And that's it, really. 96:52 I mean, there's no real rules for what is and what is not permitted. You've got... Repetition used to be frowned upon, but, I mean, we're all getting on now, so who can even remember what we talked about in the first hour of the programme, let alone what's popped up on Mystery Hour over the last few years. There's an archive, I should tell you, Global Player or the LBC website. There's loads of old Mystery Hours that you can listen to, particularly good family listening. And... 97:20 And, of course, there's games, two games. I got a message off my own daughter last night, and she had taken the travel edition of Mystery Hour to the pub with her friends, and I got a message. I admit that it was slightly unpleasant to realise how surprised the message was, and also that she hadn't played it before. 97:41 We played the big game a few times as a family, but she took the tin, the travel edition to the pub last night and got in touch to say how much they were all enjoying it with photographic evidence. And if you want to get your hands on a Mystery Hour game, either the original board game or... The travel edition, which is in a tin, very neat, very compact. You can carry it to the pub with ease. Then you need to submit my favorite contribution of the day or indeed the week. So my favorite contribution of today, of the week, of the hour, gets a mystery hour game of your choice, either the board or the travel edition, which comes in a tin. 98:19 I think that's it. The full terms and conditions, because this is a proper grown-up radio competition, can be found at lbc.co.uk. And if you don't fancy trying to win it, but you really want one anyway, great news, you can buy one. Or two, or 27, simply by going to mysteryhour.co.uk. And I think that covers all of the sorts of homework, doesn't it? It's six minutes after 12. And have I done everything? I think yes. Shall we start? Shall we crack on? It's quite an early start. Six minutes after 12 normally takes me 10 minutes to get my teeth in. 98:51 No, we're off. Lauren is in Manchester. Lauren, question or answer? 98:55 Question, please. 98:56 Carry on. 98:57 I'm wondering why are some people more photogenic than others? 99:02 Well, that's an uncanny question. 99:05 Yeah. I mean, I'm wondering if it is in our genetics. Hang on a minute. 99:08 You don't know why it's uncanny. 99:11 Well, yeah. 99:12 Do you? 99:13 No. 99:13 No. It's uncanny because I'm having a photo shoot this afternoon. 99:19 Well, I have heard you over the last few weeks talking about updating your photo and that's what got me thinking about it, actually. 99:24 Well, that's even more uncanny because the boss came over yesterday and she said, we've got a new photo for you. This one has been approved. Are you all right with it? And I looked at it and I can't lie to you. 99:36 I went, for... that's a really flattering picture of me and she said very kindly she said well but that is what you look like and i said it's not because usually in photographs i look like a right old dog's dinner and not just because i'm a scruffy git who never brushes his hair but because i am not photogenic i am the opposite of photogenic but obviously this photograph And I'm having some more done later today for a very exciting new thing that I'm not allowed to tell you about yet. 100:02 But this this this photograph was makeup and lights and a professional photographer in a studio. But that looked like what I see in the mirror, Lauren. 100:11 Yeah. 100:11 And yet usually when I have my photograph taken, I think, who's that ugly get? And what's he doing where I was standing when that photograph was taken? So are you photogenic? 100:21 No, I don't think so. And I was thinking, is it mental? Do we think we look better than we actually do? 100:25 Yeah, I've often wondered that. Is it actually all in my head? Or are we not quite as good looking as we think we are? And the photograph is telling the truth, but somehow our brain... I hope that's not the answer. Yeah, I hope that's not the answer as well. Like the mirrors in some fitting rooms that are a little bit tinted or a little bit shaped so that you look a little bit slimmer or a little bit more tanned and you sort of walk out in the clothes and then catch your reflection in a normal mirror and you say, oh, flip it out, I don't know why I've bought this. Maybe that's just me. You're on. I like this question. Why are some people more photogenic than others? It doesn't really make sense that when a photograph is taken, some people are rendered in flattering terms and some people are not really flattered at all. 101:08 03456060973 is the number that you need. Rick's in Earl's Court. Rick, question or answer? 101:13 Question, please, James. Carry on, Rick. 101:16 Okay, so I've owned dogs all my life. 101:19 I've got three at the moment. Oh, yeah. That's a lot of dogs. 101:25 I've had more. Never mind. I've noticed something really strange when dogs walk past butchers. 101:31 I've had dogs that have obviously, obviously to perhaps you and I, without thinking about too much, obviously rather enjoyed the... The meaty aroma, the meaty aroma. 101:42 That's the name of my first band. 101:46 But on the other hand, I've also had dogs that are scared. 101:49 Of butcher's smells, of the smell of a butcher's. 101:52 And pull me to try and get me to go on to the other side of the road. Really? Absolutely. So I kind of noticed this when we had a Bernie's Mountain Dog and a Golden Retriever. Yeah. And it's a theme that's kind of carried on. There was a time up until a month ago when I had two Golden Retrievers. Oh, I'm sorry. 102:15 One died tragically. Let's leave that for the moment. The one that died was what's called a working line dog. And the other one is a show line dog. And the working line dog was the one that would want to pull me to the other side of the road. And the show line dog is one of the most laid back dogs I've ever had anyway, which is, you know, quite more than able and happy to walk past the butcher. 102:46 And with the other dogs you've had over the years, could you do it by breed? Were you able to? 102:52 Kind of. I had something called a Putty Basset Von Deen, which is actually quite a small dog, but they were, in their DNA, they used to be used to take a deer down if somebody had been stalking a deer and not got a clean shot. 103:10 Good Lord. 103:10 And they'd set this breed, probably more likely with the Grand Basset Griffin Von Deen, which was slightly bigger in size, but the same one. 103:20 they'd send that one off um i don't know what it is about the bernese mounted dog that made that nervous um it's still less so i know why there might be a difference between a lovely question i mean we will find out i've got i've got a question for you though uh-huh it's a long while since i lived in earl's court but i don't think there are any butchers in earl's court uh well i've pulled over i've been in the car your your research assistant said uh where are you where you place to and i said earl's court so So that probably most simply answers your question. 103:53 My knowledge of London butchers second only to my knowledge of London pubs. But there aren't any butchers in Earl's Court. You'd have to go all the way to Old Brompton Road, I think, to Parsons Nose to get... Which, I mean, anyway, I digress. I love that. I like these sort of questions because a lot of people listening will be responding. I mean, here's one. Martin says, my staffy won't go anywhere near a butcher's. He's absolutely terrified. And yet it is... To continue the dog's dinner theme that came up when I was describing to Lauren how unphotogenic I am, it is a dog's dinner. So how can they be... 104:24 How can they be perturbed by the smell of what they desire? What is to them, in a slightly different context, absolutely delicious. Why do some dogs appear to be frightened of butcher's shops while other dogs absolutely love them? And I am, Rick, genuinely sorry for your loss, mate. Seriously. Mind how you go. Two questions on the board. Both, I think, quite good, actually. Dean is in Sunderland. Dean, question or answer? 104:49 It's a question, James. Yes, mate. 104:53 When you go for a wee, when a man goes for a wee, probably he's worked with a woman as well. Yeah. During the wee, if you sneeze, the wee automatically stops. 105:04 And when the sneeze is over, the wee carries on. 105:09 Why is that? 105:13 I mean, how often has this happened to you? 105:18 Oh, and any time that I sneeze... Yeah, but I mean, are you a big sneezer? 105:22 Are you like that girl on Roy Castle's Record Breakers, all those who couldn't stop sneezing? 105:27 No, I am quite a big sneezer. And generally in the morning, generally if I wake up early in the morning, I sneeze quite a lot. And when you wake up early in the morning, the first thing you do is go to the toilet, innit? 105:41 Yeah? So you go for a wee and you sneeze and it starts... I mean, it's muscles, isn't it? It's got to be a kind of... It's like a spasm, isn't it? A sneeze. And so everything... A reflex, a reflex, everything. But you want a little bit more than that. 105:53 Yeah, so what do you think? Is it the reflex of the muscle, which I refer to as a trapdoor muscle? 105:59 Yeah, I like that. That's the technical... That's the correct technical term. Yes? No? Or is it something else going on? Is it further up the system? 106:06 Is it your brain saying, you know, I'm a man, I can't multitask... I can't do two things at once. 106:13 I can't think of any evolutionary advantage to stopping when you sneeze. I mean, I imagine it's just a sort of biological reflex, but someone might know the answer, but there's a strong chance no one will. 106:27 I would think so. I just think it's quite amusing that it kind of automatically begins once the sneeze is over. 106:35 And if you sneeze several times... And it stops and starts and starts and starts and starts and starts. It does, yeah. 106:44 You're easily amused. 106:47 Yeah, exactly. Especially if there's nothing on the telly. 106:52 Thank you, Dean. That's the thing now, isn't it? What are you going to do? Wait until you need a wee and then try and sneeze? Or wait until you need a sneeze and then dash into the loo and try and have a wee? Just detect Dean's theory of wheeze and sneezes. Snoozes, if you like. It's coming up to quarter past twelve. Squeezing one more, I think. Alison is in Bury St Edmunds. Alison, question or answer? 107:12 Hello, James. Question, please. 107:13 Carry on, Alison. 107:15 So mine is about books, specifically Jane Austen and the Bronte sisters. 107:20 Yes. 107:21 18th century. 107:23 Watched lots of dramas, films. Their books are always produced in volumes of three. 107:28 As in three separate publications? 107:32 Yeah, for one title, like Emma... 107:35 whatever but when i look at my book case i have one book yes so my question is why volumes are free in those days and when did it was two questions when did it change to just one book from waterstones today um i i think it's pretty obvious not to me well i mean i don't i mean that it's 107:57 The cost of producing books was much higher in those days. 108:00 And so you would buy... Eleanor's giving me a look, and she's got a degree in English, you know. You would buy... I mean, it's not the same question as Dickens. A lot of people have probably already fallen down that rabbit hole, where Dickens, as you know, Alison, was writing... 108:15 serials for magazines so most of his novels it's why so many chapters end with comparative cliffhangers and you would then go out and buy the magazine the following week in order to find out what happens next like a kind of early soap opera but i think with the more literary fiction i think i think it was to do with the cost So the three volume became much more affordable. You could afford a volume and then you could afford the net. So and then now, obviously, producing books is relatively cheap. You can knock them out for 99p in some cases. I think that's the reason. 108:46 I wanted it to be something more romantic. Well, it might be. Like the printing press. Yeah, yeah. 108:51 It could be. I mean, I'm not taking the round of applause for that. But I think it would probably be that. But I'm going to put it on the board. Why were novels published in three volumes? And the Brontes as well, was it? Was it the same with the Brontes? Yeah. 109:05 I've just watched a brilliant film, They Walk Invisible, and there are scenes in that where, because obviously they printed under mail, or not their own names, but there are scenes in that where, when they present them to their father, they are all in these volumes of three. 109:21 And when you've got them, I haven't read one for a while, is our modern version split accordingly? Does it say volume one, volume two, volume three, albeit that they're all in one book, or do they just run through the chapters normally? I can't remember, can you? 109:36 Well, the last one I read, Emma, it was a normal book. 109:39 Yeah, just chapter after chapter with no demarcation of where the original volumes would have separated. But why would there be? Because they don't serve any purpose, any literary purpose. I think it was a commercial thing, but I don't know for sure. So I will leave it on the board. What a lovely question. 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need. So to recap, why are some people more photogenic than others? 109:59 Why do some dogs love the smell of butcher's shops while other dogs appear to be terrified by it? 110:05 Why do you stop weeing when you sneeze? Thank you, Dean. And why were 18th century novels originally published in three volumes? 03456060973, if you can answer any of those, or if you've got a question of your own. It's 1217. 110:23 Mystery Hour on LBC with James O'Brien. Call 0345 6060 973. 110:31 12.19 is the time you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC, where Mystery Hour continues. Your weekly opportunity to achieve the sort of satisfaction not ordinarily available anywhere else on your radio. Have you achieved it yet? 110:44 Well, just be patient then. James is in Gillingham. James, question or answer? 110:49 Oh, hello, James. Oh, hello, James. It's a question, please. Carry on, James. It's a question. Yeah, I always wonder, what makes the sea and the ocean salty? 110:58 If you went off the coast of Brighton, took a cup full of water, and then you went half a mile down in the trench, I can't remember what it's called, in the Miriana Trench or something, and took a cup full of water there, they'd both be salty. And it's a massive volume of water worldwide. So what is it, firstly, that makes it salty? And how can it be so kind of consistently salty? 111:21 Does that make sense? Yeah, you're only really allowed one question. 111:24 Oh, no, sorry. 111:25 That's all right. Don't worry. Why is the sea salty? 111:29 Yeah, well, what makes it salty? 111:32 Andy's tasted to say it's all the sea salt. 111:34 Oh, very good. 111:39 I thought so. We should know this, shouldn't we? Isn't this kind of like kindergarten geography? Probably. I don't know what it is. I mean, all the salt in all the world, you had a walk in. Why is it salty? 111:54 But what's the word I'm looking for? Not consistently, but all the way through the sea. Yeah, consistently salt. 111:59 Yeah, I do. I mean, the Dead Sea is saltier than other seas, but that's because it's technically a lake, isn't it? And it's not so much a mystery. Once you've got salt in a body of water... then it is going to be evenly distributed. So the level of saltiness in a body of water that is linked through various channels. But there's so much salt, isn't there? 112:21 And it's not evenly distributed unless it's in the same body of water. So more or less, some seas will be a little bit saltier than others. But yeah, generally speaking, you're very rarely going to go for a swim and not taste salt. 112:34 All right. 112:35 Why? Why is it salty? I like that. I've got just a weird little niggle in the back of my brain that either I should know it or we have done it before, but it doesn't matter. Can't remember. 112:45 It is 22 minutes after 12, and Damien is in Windermere, which is not salty. Damien, question or answer? It's a question, James, please. Carry on. 112:55 Why do fighter jets have the pilot's names on the side of a jet if everything's supposed to be quite secretive and they've got call zones? 113:04 Well, I actually know this. 113:07 Oh, nice one. 113:08 It's so they know which plane to get into. Yeah. 113:14 That would make perfect sense. I'm not even joking. They come out of the mess or the dormitory or wherever it is. They hang out and they rush out onto the runway. I don't know if you've ever noticed this, Damien, but they all look the same, these planes, from a squadron level. They all look the same and they sort of think, well, I can't remember my call sign. It's AFG something or other. Do you know your own car's registration number? 113:44 cost of it yeah all right that's not a very good example do you know your national insurance that's not a very good example do you know my car's registration number absolutely no there you go so you're rushing out you rush out onto the do you know your phone number do you know your wife's phone number do you know yeah all right okay these are all very bad examples but it's not easy to remember your call sign but you can everyone remembers their own name often they're also damien they're often quite drunk So they can't remember their call sign because they're often quite drunk fighter pilots. They rush out onto the runway and the only way they can be sure that they're climbing into the right plane is because they've got their name written on the side of it. 114:22 Yeah. You're not taking that, are you? No, no, not at all. I didn't think you would. Are we sure it's true? I mean, it's not just something that we get from films? 114:30 I'll tell you what I was thinking. I was watching a film and... 114:34 Yeah, I'm not as worried about that bit of it as you are. I mean, if you get captured by enemy forces, it doesn't really matter what your name is. 114:52 I didn't know if it was like, I don't know, superstition. 114:55 I think it's more likely to be that, some sort of tradition. But I mean, that's working on the presumption that it's true. It's true in that film. But I don't know. I don't remember seeing names on the side of Spitfires. Do you? 115:10 No. All right, you're on. I like this question. Nice one, Steve. Why do they put the names on the side of fighter jets if brackets they do? Close brackets. Nice one. It is 24 minutes after 12. Because some things happen in films. I don't know if you've watched Slow Horses. It's on Apple. So I fully appreciate not everybody has the subscription. 115:30 My God, it's good. Mick Heron's been on the show a few times, been on Full Disclosure as well. He's just a genius. And another mate of mine, actually, Edward Docks, has written one of the episodes for this series. I think the best series yet, Series 6 of Slow Horses. But something happened last night, no spoilers, that was so well observed. 115:49 that you sort of almost did a double take. There were two things I noticed last night on Slow Horses. 115:55 The first was, there's a character who's an oaf. He's quite a likeable oaf some of the time, and the rest of the time he's not a likeable oaf at all. He's a pure oaf. 116:05 But he thinks he's Rambo. And he's a sort of rubbish spy is the best way of describing it. And at one point in the final episode of Slow Horses, he has to try to shoot someone. And it's not, despite his self-image as Rambo, it's really not part of his natural skill set. He's a geek. He's very good with the computers. But he thinks that given the right opportunity, he'd be James Bond crossed with Rambo. And he shoots the gun. 116:32 sideways you know when you turn your hand you turn your hand side like that which nobody who's ever got any firearms experience whatsoever would ever do but you see it happening in Hollywood movies you might see someone like I don't know um Eddie Murphy do I don't even think Eddie Murphy did but it's a it's a complete Hollywood mythology that you shoot your gun sideways you can't aim properly if you shoot it sideways anyway and and the character does it I don't even know if it was in the script, but it's exactly what that character would have done in real life. 117:04 He'd have watched so many Hollywood movies that he'd think he was shooting. 117:08 So no spoilers there. So it might be that the names on the side of fighter jets are the same. It's just something in films, not real life. 117:16 The other thing I noticed last night, I don't know if anyone else noticed this, that there's a scene where the camera pans over an abandoned toilet, an abandoned public convenience, and there's loads and loads of graffiti on the facilities as it makes its way towards a sort of Russian spy who's trying to... 117:34 recover from a terrible car accident. Again, no spoilers. And one of the words in the graffiti is boom, B-O-E-H-M, or possibly it may be spelt B-E-O-H-M in the graffiti. And Mick Herron's other great series of books, which were published before Slow Horses came out, before he was famous, really, but they've gone back to them and they filmed it also for Apple with Emma Thompson, are the Zoe Boom thrillers. I love stuff. These Easter eggs. Are these what you call Easter eggs? 118:05 I love stuff like this. So there's just this graffiti and my brain, my lizard brain went ping. And I thought, why is my lizard brain... Ah, there's a little nod there to Mick Herron fans because that's the name of his other major character in his other series of... brilliant books and it was just written in the middle of a wall full of graffiti and the other amazing thing about the new series of uh slow horses it's got lenny rush in it who is such an incredible talent i would watch him in absolutely anything seriously the the lad is a acting genius a joy joy to behold anyway that's the end of this week's recommendations steve's in crawley steve question or answer 118:43 Answer, please, James, and thanks for the spoiler on last night. 118:46 There was no spoiler there. There was no spoiler. 118:49 I'll let you off. 118:50 You don't let me off. I was absolutely painstaking to ensure there was no spoiler. Someone shoots a gun, Steve. Someone shoots a gun in an espionage. Anyway, go on, answer, answer, answer. 119:01 Answer, answer. The photographic, why are some people photogenic and some not? 119:06 Yeah, I'm a photographer, have been for nearly 20 years, and people often come up to me when I'm mainly a people photographer. I'm literally sitting here editing last week's wedding as we speak. And they say, will you teach me how to pose? I said, no, but I'll teach you how not to. The people who are photogenic are the ones who can relax in front of a camera. You don't need to look like Charlize Theron or... whatever your favourite model is, you just need to be able to relax in front of the camera and not have unrealistic expectations. I do get those occasionally. 119:37 I mean, that's not true. I mean, it's true. No, it's true. Obviously, being relaxed helps. But I have been, how can I put this diplomatically, I have been incredibly relaxed in some of the photographs that have been taken of me, and I still look like a right old munter. 119:55 Well, yes. I mean, when I'm shooting at someone who isn't used to being photographed, I'm not using the word shoot, it doesn't sound right. When I'm working with someone who's not used to being photographed, I sometimes spend 20 minutes or so just finding them. Really? There's one look. Oh, yeah, one look or something that is really them. I've got one absolutely stunning model I work with, but I only like shooting her from her left-hand side. There's something not quite right when I shoot her from the right-hand side. Right. And you just see it. When you see it, you see it. Yeah, OK. 120:24 So it might be something to do with facial symmetry or it might have... 120:28 Yes, the golden ratio. 120:29 The golden ratio could contribute to it. OK. I mean, it's not... I don't think that this is a comfort to me and Lauren. I think because you're suggesting we could learn to look better in photographs. I don't know how old Lauren is, but I'm, hard though it is to believe, in my 50s now. And I have never learned how to look better in photographs. I've lifted my chin. I've put my chin down. I've tried to relax. I've leant forward. Do you potentially think you've got unrealistic expectations? That is another possible answer to the question. 121:01 Have I seen really good photos of you? 121:03 Well, exactly, because then one comes along, you see, And I look at it and I go, hello, sailor. 121:10 But it just doesn't happen very often. 121:13 That's your look. All right. Qualifications? As good models. People are professional photographers for nearly 20 years. There you go. 121:20 Round of applause for Steve. And to answer your question, Steve, I don't really have a favourite model, but I am quite a fan of Senator John Husted, the Republican for Ohio. 121:31 I don't know if you're... Yeah, OK. Never mind. It's 1231. And Dominic Ellis has your headlines. 121:42 It's 1234. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I've still got room for some more questions, actually. So we've answered the photogenic one. That's pretty much it. Have you had dogs in your life? Have you ever walked past a butcher's? Sounds like I'm doing an advert, doesn't it? Have you had dogs in your life? Have you ever walked past a butcher's? Did you notice how the dog responded? Do we know why some dogs are apparently spooked by the smells emanating from a butcher's shop while other dogs are absolutely entranced by them? 0345 6060 973. 122:11 Why were novels in the 18th century and possibly elsewhere, but certainly not now, published in three volumes? Novels that are now published in one by, for example, Jane Austen would originally have been published in three. Do you know why? If so, 0345 6060973. Why is the sea salty? 122:31 And why do fighter jet pilots write their name on the side of the plane, given that it could, at the very least, be some sort of security risk? If you can answer any of those, or if you've got others that you would like to ask, then the number you need remains the same, 03456060973. And just, I don't want to sound... 122:50 Chippy or Moody, perish the thought. But I didn't give any spoilers away when I was talking about slow horses. I literally just revealed that someone got shot and that an actor is in it. There was absolute, so stop it with your moaning and your complaining, otherwise I'll stop doing charming asides into my cultural life and then you'll be sorry. Bessim is in Seven Kings. Bessim, question or answer? It's a question, James. Carry on. 123:20 I'm wondering which language has most unique words? 123:26 Blimey. How do you mean? 123:29 Well, being bilingual, I noticed that in English you've got takeover, take in, take up, take down... 123:41 And in Serbo-Kroat, which is my second language, we have a word for each of those, not to mention hair dryer, screwdriver, nail hitter, or you've got a nail hitter, it's a hammer. But there are also different hammers, like you have club hammer, pin hammer, which again, we have words for. So Google will tell you that English has most words, but I'm kind of doubting that with my experiences. 124:10 I mean, what language has the most words? The most unique words. 124:15 But all words are unique. 124:17 Either object or like a verb, that sort of thing, rather than coined words like take up, take in, that sort of thing. What do you mean? 124:29 I don't. Oh, I see what you mean. But they're not really coined words. All words are coined. 124:36 At some point. 124:37 Take up and take in are completely different words. Yeah. 124:41 Well, take in is not a word. Take in is two words. 124:44 Yes. But it refers to a single item, if you like. Yeah. Take in is the action that you do. 124:53 Right. 124:54 I don't understand the question, Basim. It's my fault, not yours. 124:59 Well, if we concentrate on coins with take, take up, take in, and so on. 125:07 I would class that as one word in English. But in Serbo-Kroat, it would be a separate word for each of these actions. 125:16 Take in, take up, take over. 125:19 Okay. Take down. Yeah. Take away. Take away. Yeah. 125:25 That is actually one word. 125:28 There you go. I'm putting it on the board because I'm sure that other people listening understand it better than I do. Right. 125:37 Because I don't quite get what you mean. I don't understand the difference. 125:41 Say a hairdryer. 125:44 Yeah, all right, a hairdryer. 125:45 Yeah, we've got a word for that, which is a single word, not something that dries your hair, but it's a word. Same as the nail clippers. Same as a hedge trimmer. So... 125:57 English language being the one that Google says has most words in a dictionary. I'm kind of wondering, is there a language that would have More unique words than English, if that makes it any clearer. 126:18 Not even a tiny bit. But that's all right. It's my fault. I mean, it's on the board. We'll try it. Someone will know. I mean, I don't know. I mean, the Inuit have like 28 different words for snow. 126:32 But that's only one word that they've got 28 different words for. 126:36 Yeah, yeah. 126:36 That feels like it might be relevant, but... Yeah. I don't know. All right, you're on. Well, I mean, we probably won't, but we'll try to find an answer to that question. Which language has the most unique words? 03456060973 is the number that you need. 126:55 Who put that through? 126:59 Yeah, do they understand what that question was in a way that I didn't? 127:04 Or are we... 127:07 Am I missing? 127:09 Oh, okay. 127:10 Oh, how convenient. Paul's in Tottenham. Paul, question or answer? Question, please, James. Great show, by the way. Thank you very much. It's all right. Carry on. 127:18 Okay. My wife and I are both right-handed. Our parents were both right-handed. We have two children. They're both left-handed. 127:27 How does that work? 127:31 I don't know, really. I mean, it's... 127:39 Thank God for that. I thought this was going to be like a Jeremy Kyle episode, so I actually broke one of the great rules of mischief, and I googled it, mate, because I thought this could be a terrible thing happening live on the radio, but two right-handed parents can have a left-handed child. 127:54 oh there's a nine to eleven percent i thought i was going to be asking about what what you know when the milkman delivers the milk does he lift them out of the crate with his right hand or his left hand yes i had the same idea oh i'm honestly relieved that i just had a right old moment because i know what the people who listen to this program are like and their minds would have gone to exactly the same place that i went to so um yeah all right how does that happen it means that it's not a sort of genetic dominance doesn't it it's not a dominant gene so we need to know what it is how can two right-handed parents have left-handed children it's funny as well i suppose because you can't really help them deal with the the difficulties or the differences of being left-handed do you have a selection of implements in the house do you have like left-handed scissors in the drawer for the kids and right-handed scissors for you and your wife 128:42 No, and I'm not allowed near scissors either. 128:44 That's fair enough. On reflection, it's probably just as well. I like that. How does that work then? Because we'd have always thought that it was somehow genetic, but apparently not. 0345 6060 973 is the number you need. 1241 is the time. James is in Horsham. Question or answer, James? 129:03 Question, please, James. Carry on. 129:06 So... What I want to know is, where does the term he's a dead ringer for someone, or someone's a dead ringer for someone else, where does it come from? 129:15 I think I read this quite recently, Matt. 129:19 Because I thought it might have, you know, the thing of a dead ringer in Victorian times, they had like, people were buried in coffins, had a bell to ring in case they weren't dead. Yeah. 129:30 How does that become a copycat or someone who looks exactly like another person? It's a dead ringer. I've read it recently, I think. 129:38 Yeah. I've read it recently in a novel that I'm reading about a police officer in 1950s Brighton who teams up with a magician to solve crimes. Yeah. and it came up i'm sure it came up in one of those books so that yeah i've got this going round and round and round and i can't answer it um you're on yeah why do we say dead ringer to describe like a sort of carbon copy or a or a splitting a splitting or a splitting image thank you james uh 0345 6060973 to join in with any or to answer any of these questions um char is in ilford char question or answer um It was originally for one answer, but while I've been... No, no, no. 130:20 ...half an hour, I've got to answer for two. No, you're not allowed to, mate. Only one. The one you cleared with the people that put through Bessim's question about which language has the most unique words. 130:30 No, no, that wasn't me. 130:31 No, I know, but I'm just pointing out that the person you cleared your answer with are the same people that put through the question about which... Oh, I see, fair enough. So I'm not exactly overcome... You're going to have an inquest? I'm going to have more than an inquest, mate. It's going to be P-45s flying around the studio. What have you got? What have you got? Which one do you want to answer? 130:48 Okay, the question regarding when you sneeze, why does the urine stop? 130:53 Yes. 130:54 And you were pretty much right on the ball with it... 130:57 your urethra goes through the pelvic floor for both men and women to go out and urine from the bladder itself. to the outside to where it's a penis to the vagina. And when you sneeze, your pelvic floor, which is basically a sheet of muscle that holds your abdomen together, that contracts and that contracts and that squeezes the urethra and your urine stops for that fraction of a second. 131:20 Perfect. Why then did so many women get in touch with me to describe the opposite happening, i.e. when they sneeze a little bit of wee comes out? 131:30 That's also to do with the pelvic floor, but that's generally... um now you're making me answer two questions uh that's that's that's okay i can answer three i know the answer to the uh the salt sea as well no you're not allowed to answer three but you are somehow allowed to answer two and that is also the pelvic floor so as the pelvic floor has become weaker women of a certain age absolutely and it normally it happens to women who have gone through natural childbirth yes and that the the birth canal is also the same opening through the pelvic floor that the urethra comes through so when the pelvic floor when you have natural childbirth that widens that aperture in the pelvic floor and hence why women are advised to stop and start urine when after child was to try to you know get the muscles back in shape get the muscles back and so then they're not incontinent they don't have so many incontinent issues 132:25 There you go. You heard it. Well, not first. 132:28 But you were spot on. 132:29 You were pretty much... Yeah, I mean, it's kind of self-evident, but it's nice to hear. Well, I presume you're an expert. I haven't established that yet. What are your qualifications? 132:37 I'm a biological scientist. I work for a pharmaceutical company and I spent around about four years within the urology therapy arena to do with incontinence. 132:47 Very well. That's about as qualified as you can get in this kind of conflict. Great stuff. Thank you. No, thank you. You too. 12.45 is the time. 132:57 12.48 is the time. 132:59 And here are some words to soothe even the most furrowed brow. Mark is in Barrow in Furnace, which means there must be a word-based question on the board. Mark, question or answer? 133:10 It's an answer to the question about English and Serbo-Croat with the types of words that are common. 133:16 Blimey. Go on, then. 133:17 Well... 133:19 A lot of languages have compound words in large numbers, and English is a good example of that. 133:24 So when he said unique, you think he meant non-compound? 133:27 I think he's meaning that in Serbian and Croatian, there are more non-compound words. Got it. With the same meaning as a compound word in English. 133:36 Oh, I see. 133:37 Sorry, Besson. 133:39 Sorry. 133:40 No, I'm sorry. I'm apologizing to Bessim for not understanding what you managed to understand very easily and quickly. I said it was my fault. I did say it was my fault. 133:47 It is grist to mine, though, I suppose. True, true. It doesn't mean you can always easily tell what the two parts mean when put together. So, for example, understand, meaning comprehend. But it looks as if it should mean stand under something. 134:02 Ah. 134:02 But it doesn't actually mean that. And it may once have done. In ancient Greek, the equivalent word is literally overstand. 134:10 Of course. When you mean, understand. And a lot of the Indo-European languages have this, and Sanskrit has so many that they have a terminology for different types of compound in their ancient literature. In the grammar by Panini, for example, big account of all the different types of compound word. Now, the Slavic languages, which include Serbo-Kroat, probably have less of that than most Indo-European languages. 134:35 They have more unique words, as your speaker said. Wow. And... I mean, the Slavic language I know most of is Russian. 134:43 Okay. 134:44 And I think Russian doesn't have it quite to the extent Serbacoat does. I think there are more compound words, relatively speaking, in Russian. 134:53 But certainly that group is known for having a lot of, as was said, unique words where... 135:00 There's a word which is a single word, a single morphine. I see, rather than a... German has loads of compound words, some of them very long. 135:11 Yeah, of course. Do we know why? Do we know why Serbocrat has this status? 135:17 I don't think we do know, partly because this probably goes back into the mists of time. And at one stage, these languages weren't written much, if at all. So the records are mostly quite recent. So we often can see a pattern, but we don't know the remote past well enough to know how that pattern arose. But it has to go one way or another. This is called language typology. Languages of different types in different respects. And very often it's so deep-seated that it would apply to a whole language family. 135:47 And if there is an explanation, it's in the far past. 135:50 Good Lord, what a brilliant answer. Do you know the serbo-kraut word for beer? 135:56 It may be piva, which that's the Russian word. Oh, it's probably be similar to that. 136:01 All right. Yeah. Well done. That was it. That was it. That was my contribution to this conversation. 136:06 Well, but the thing is, the thing is, these languages, you know, they have because they have close, close common ancestors, the Slavic languages. They're similar to each other. So you'd notice any cases where there is a small difference. 136:19 Ah, yes, which is why he was alive to it in a way that I was too dozy even to understand what he was talking about. Bessim, you got an answer. I mean, we can't put a crown on a single language, but you were quite right to think that Serbo-Croat was particularly unique, unique heavy, unique word heavy. Reminders of your qualifications, Mark? 136:38 I'm a long-standing professional linguist. I was going to add very briefly that those private languages are so similar. The main language non-Slavic they've been in contact with is German. And Slavic words for Germans are the people we can't talk to. 136:52 Oh, wow. Oh, that's lovely. Gosh. 136:55 You get the gist of each other, you know. 136:57 Yes, of course. 136:58 But not German, because it's so different. 137:00 It is measurably different. That's a beautiful... You always do this. Absolutely charmed by your answers, Mark. 137:06 Thank you. Thank you for your interest. Always. 137:09 It's Pivo, anyway, the Serbo-crack word for beer, but he was near enough. 137:15 Here's a word you've never heard me say. Well, here's something. I learned that on pilgrimage. 137:19 There you go. I was on a pilgrimage in Yugoslavia when I learned the word for beer. Also, I did a 24-hour fast while I was on pilgrimage in Yugoslavia, the former Yugoslavia. And at the end of the fast, I thought that I would order a nice glass of schnapps. 137:37 And I ordered it in fluent Serbo-Croat, and they brought me a pork sandwich. Tony is in Eastbourne. Tony, question or answer? It's answer. Answer, James. Carry on, Tony. 137:47 It's names on the aircraft for the fighter planes and bombers. Yeah, there is a reason for that. It's because... modern day fighters they're very sophisticated aircraft lots of technology they're tailored to the pilot so when they're scrambled they need to be able to find their plane straight away and they know it's theirs because it's got their name on it thank you very much so i was 100 correct 138:12 you were that's incredible and it's presumably also the bit i missed was that you know it's a bit like if i get in the car after mrs o'brien has been driving i don't want to be faffing about changing the changing the chair and all that kind of stuff exactly so the specifics in the cockpit are tailor-made to the because you might have one pilot who's six foot two and another one is four foot one well there is a height restriction well you know what i'm talking about tony you know what i'm talking about qualifications 138:40 I was ground crew for 12 Squadron in Scotland in the 90s. Fantastic. 138:45 And a big round of applause for you. 138:48 Thank you. And obviously I was lying when I said they were often drunk. That has absolutely nothing to do with... Well... No, go on. 138:54 What? No, I'm not going to comment on that, but it'll be interesting to do some breath tests on them before they go out and do the job. 139:01 It can get very cold out there in Scotland. Thank you, Tony! I think we're going for a full board. If we can just get an answer... No, we haven't got the Jane Austen one either, have we? But why is the sea salty? 0345 6060973. Lewis is in Putney. Lewis, what have you got? 139:17 Left-handedness. Why? 139:19 Well, so basically, if we were going to make it simply, imagine you have two sets of chromosomes, obviously, in each cell. And so your parents can give you one of those two genes, shall we say. So you've got four genes. You need left-handedness if it was one gene, which it isn't. It's multiple genes. But you need the recessive genes. So from that four, you would need the recessive one from your dad and the recessive one from your mother. And then that would be like a one in four chance in the example I've given. Because if you got one recessive and one dominant, the dominant one is going to take over. 139:56 But in reality, it's multiple genes working together. So basically, why would two right-handed parents have a left-handed child, like both my right-handed parents and I'm left-handed? 140:09 It's because in, you know, somewhere in their ancestry, there is left-handedness has come into the chain, as it were. 140:16 Yeah, it's also environmental as like Catholic schools used to force people not to be left-handed. And so you get other things like that. And like they've done studies where two identical twins have been separated and for whatever reason, and one has grown up and become left-handed and one has grown up and become right-handed. So there's many factors that go into it. And it's also, it's like a spectrum. Because you get some footballers, like Iron Robin, for example, who's very left-footed. 140:47 He wouldn't ever use his right, but he was very good with his left. And you get some footballers who are sort of in between and can use both equally well. 140:55 Yeah, we've got a goalie at the moment who's on loan from Manchester City who I'd noticed that the second or third time I watched him could take goal kicks with either foot. He's only 18. He's an absolute star of the future. I guarantee it. Yeah. 141:09 It took me a while to spot that he was actually capable of hoofing it all the way up the park with both feet. Qualifications? 141:15 I have a degree in medical genetics and I'm left-handed. Of course you do. 141:18 Round of applause for Lewis. 141:20 Thank you. 141:21 Thank you all. Jack Wint is the goalie's name. I don't do this very often with football because it's not really my field of expertise. I don't really see, no offence to the lads that kid and missed areas, but it's not often that I see people who I think might play in World Cups one day. But I would not be surprised if that lad does. He's saved penalties this season like it was doing it in his sleep. Extraordinary goalkeeper and still, as I say, only 18 or 19 years old. Paul's in Selby. Paul, question or answer? Answer. Carry on. 141:50 It's the Dead Ringer. Oh, yes. So, you're going to know this as soon as I start. I'm not. You are. I'm not. In the olden days, they used to drink out of tankards, pure tankards, and they had a high lead content. 142:04 Yeah. 142:05 So, mixed with the alcohol, it used to make people appear, when they were drunk, as if they were dead, and they'd bury them alive. 142:13 So that's where the wake came from. They used to leave them to make sure that they'd wake up. They'd then bury them. They'd put a bell. When they found out they were burying people alive, they used to put a string and a bell into the grave with them. Just in case they came alive, they could ring the bell. That's where the graveyard shift came from because somebody used to walk around doing the graveyard shift. and looking for listening out for the bells, and then they'd dig them up, and then you'd see them. They'd had a funeral a couple of days before. 142:46 You'd see them walking down the street and go, you are a dead ringer for Steve who died last week. It's not right. 142:52 It's not right. 142:54 I like it. It's just not right, mate. How do you mean it's not right? I just mean it's wrong. 142:59 I've known this for years. 143:02 No, it's not. It's got something to do with horses or something. It has, it has, it has. 143:06 It's not, honestly. 143:08 I mean, lots of what you said is true. They used to have little bells in graves in case someone got buried alive. It was a big Victorian fear. 143:16 And maybe there's even something true about lead tankards causing lead poisoning, but it wouldn't make you look dead. And the graveyard shift with the people. I know there's a whole story. It's got something to do with horses. It's definitely got something to do with putting a horse in a race that was not the horse. It just looked like the other horse. 143:31 No, it was people. It was horses. 143:34 It was horses and then it became people. I'm not going to, I mean, I'm not having it. 143:38 Okay. I'm not. Well, now I feel bad. 143:40 No, you don't have to feel bad. 143:41 Hey, I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what. There's something that I used to go around telling people. You can have the game. 143:49 No, you can have the game. You can have the game. What, if you're wrong? Yeah, but just for being charming. 143:55 Right, OK. That's it, you've won the game this week. Oh, really? Yeah, you have. We've won the game. Are you kidding me? No, I'm not kidding you, because you brought it with your full chest and you were really chuffed to be on. I was so excited. I know you were. I was 59 years old, I was skipping around my house. Here I am, raining on your parade, weeing on your chips. We did get an answer to that question. And it's not fair. You deserve the game, even though it's not true about what you said. 144:20 Right. 144:20 So you've got the game. You've got disappointment in one hand, and you've got joy in the other hand. 144:28 All human life is here, Paul. You have cheered me. I can't tell you how much you've just cheered me up. It's a win. And what a bad time I've been having. Oh, I'm glad to hear that. 144:38 Seriously. Honestly, I'm going to cry. Oh, stop it. Seriously. I mean, it's good, this game, but I don't want you to get your hopes up too high. I can't explain it to you. Oh, Paul, you're a sweetheart. Well, stay safe, won't you? Promise me you'll stay safe. I promise you. Give him two. Give him two. Stay on the line. Tell Eleanor which game that you want. Sorry, I'm getting heckled. 144:59 Stay on the line and tell Eleanor which game you want, the travel edition or the box, and look after yourself and have things that are never as bad as they feel. It is one o'clock. You have been listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I got told off yesterday for not doing this bit properly. If you missed any of today's show, you can listen back on our free Global Player app or the LBC app, where you can also stay up to date with all the latest news, videos and opinions. You can listen to a range of podcasts, including James O'Brien Daily, the best bits from my LBC show every day. So do download the official LBC app for free from your app store now. Ben Kentish in for Tom Sawbrook at four. Simon Marks in for Ben Kentish at ten. 145:30 Sheila Fogarty in for Sheila Fogarty at one. Right now. 145:33 This has been a Global Player original production.